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Post by Henka on May 16, 2011 2:08:11 GMT 9.5
I can't do your thinking for you, mgc.
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Post by mgc on May 16, 2011 3:25:27 GMT 9.5
u shouldnt allow your government to do your thinking for u..
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Post by LorrB on May 16, 2011 9:24:42 GMT 9.5
Oh my goodness. First off, I want to say how very disappointed I am to see henka has left and I can see why. I think that there would be few people around who might not get a tad upset when their beloved homeland is attacked. And lets face it... the USA is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to the world's woes. Just in this one thread the USA has been castigated for declaring war and not declaring war The rest of the world have relied upon the USA rather heavily in the past. And if we give them the responsibility and power to make these sorts of decisions, then I feel that contributing countries should take part of the blame when necessary and not just accept the glory for successes. Europe was not blameless in the great wars! History also shows that some of the UK war time leaders made abysmal blunders which cost thousands of lives. As for Australia? We follow blindly whomever we deem to be important for our defense and support (read USA and UK). The large multinational companies have proved time after time that they will do whatever it takes to turn a handsome profit. I do believe that both the UK and the USA stand accused of providing weapons (via the back door to opposition forces). Lets ditch the blame for what happened in the past, but let us not forget the untold number of people who sacrificed their lives, or sanity, to maintain our freedom. Let us also take note of what can happen when we, as individuals, do not accept personal responsibility for our action or non action in world affairs. For others to take over, all we have to do is stand aside. Important.... how can we as masons, build a better humanity?
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Post by mgc on May 16, 2011 12:56:33 GMT 9.5
often in discussions like these, overgeneralization takes place..
i.e. often when i say; "the usa did this or that", i actually mean; "those responsible did this or that".. i hope that clears up a thing or 2..
both can be considered "good" and "bad", depending on the circumstances..
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Post by LorrB on May 16, 2011 13:05:19 GMT 9.5
Lets declare war on poverty and ignorance I'll get the placards, you guys gather the flower petals.
I was there when hippies ruled ok Actually I was in London at that time.. The Beatles, Apple Bld, Savile Row. When our hearts were young and free.
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Post by mgc on May 16, 2011 13:54:30 GMT 9.5
count me in.. Uploaded with ImageShack.usany color in particular?
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Post by mgc on May 30, 2011 12:07:33 GMT 9.5
perhaps things have cooled down enough to resume the discussion..
who is "we" in this case?
nobody said no countries in europe were to blame..
why?
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Post by LorrB on May 30, 2011 12:45:16 GMT 9.5
Because most of them are dead now - and dead bodies weigh heavy. Just remember the lessons.
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Post by LorrB on May 30, 2011 12:45:17 GMT 9.5
Because most of them are dead now - and dead bodies weigh heavy. Just remember the lessons.
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Post by mgc on May 30, 2011 12:53:54 GMT 9.5
quite right.. we should remember the lessons if we want to avoid making the same mistakes over and over, but to remember a lesson, 1 must first have learned it.. as history seems to repeat itself time and time again, i doubt we have done either sufficiently..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 18:14:54 GMT 9.5
Lets ditch the blame for what happened in the past Because most of them are dead now - and dead bodies weigh heavy. Just remember the lessons. Some atrocities may take generation to heal. For instance, the Armenian genocide remains a live issue while ever Turkey denies it ever happened: Simply saying 'ditch the blame' adds insult to injury to the victims. Consider too the child abuse scandals within the churches: Victims have been made to feel guilty for not forgiving their abusers! If they freely chose to forgive, fine, but it must come entirely from them. On the other side there needs to be acceptance of having done wrong, sincere repentance for the injuries caused and, whatever atonement is possible, given without condition (including without the condition of forgiveness).
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Post by paul on Jun 1, 2011 19:46:26 GMT 9.5
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Post by tamrin on Jun 1, 2011 20:42:57 GMT 9.5
The Crusaders received absolution of sin in advance. As with Smithee's pedophile scandals this is another instance of the Church absolving its own. Whatever convoluted theology was used to justify this absurdity, true absolution simply doesn't work that way.
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Post by tamrin on Jun 1, 2011 20:46:06 GMT 9.5
The Arabs in the Middle East still seem to resent the Crusades. Muslims also resent the destruction of the Ottoman Empire following WWI.
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Post by tamrin on Jun 1, 2011 21:02:02 GMT 9.5
So even a millennium is not enough to heal some wounds - particularly in the Middle East. In speaking of "generations," I think Smithee may have had in mind the Biblical verses describing the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generation (e.g., Numbers 14:18).
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Post by mgc on Jun 2, 2011 0:35:12 GMT 9.5
we need to xpose crime to be able to learn and remember the lessons.. do we need to name names of those who perpetrated these crimes?
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Post by Henka on Jun 2, 2011 1:42:23 GMT 9.5
The Arabs in the Middle East still seem to resent the Crusades. Muslims also resent the destruction of the Ottoman Empire following WWI. They shouldn't have allied themselves with Germany. Likewise, they allied themselves with the Nazi regime during WW II. They agreed with Hitlers "Final Solution" - and still do today. The Crusades began because of Muslim expansion into the Byzantine Empire.
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Post by tamrin on Jun 2, 2011 6:10:50 GMT 9.5
They shouldn't have allied themselves with Germany. Likewise, they allied themselves with the Nazi regime during WW II. They agreed with Hitlers "Final Solution" - and still do today. Whether one agrees or not (and we need to be cautious about speaking of 'Muslim', 'Arab', 'Turkey' and the 'Ottoman Empire' as if they were more or less synonymous terms), the perception is there and there remains accountability on both sides which may need to be resolved before we are in a position to effectively address that perception.
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Post by LorrB on Jun 2, 2011 10:17:13 GMT 9.5
Accountability. How can dead people be held accountable? Karma. What you do unto other you do unto yourselves.
Maybe the ills of today is Accountability playing itself out. You killed me last life, I kill you this life and so it goes - round and round in circles.
How about we play the game... Lets forget our murderous ancestors, you seem ok and I'm definiteyly ok .. how about we make a fresh start. Or as Jesus said, forgive one another.
Having said that, I don't for a minute think it is going to happen. In my heart of hearts I have come to believe this world with all its horrors is just as it is supposed to be. A testing ground, commando course for the benefit of Soul and Spirit. We must 'run the gauntlet' to proceed.
Remember the gauntlets the officers wear... hidden symbolism revealed?
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Post by LorrB on Jun 2, 2011 10:21:15 GMT 9.5
Living people on the other hand must be held accountable for their actions!
One proviso.... one does not kill a killer, one restricts his ability to harm others. Two provisos.... torture is wrong, no matter who does it.
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