geopolitics & necessary evils

[mgc]

is the usa a necessary evil?
its actions (far as i can see) serve to increase or maintain its own power over the world.. it doesnt shun violence and unethical behaviour to achieve this goal..

is that "evil"? imo, yes..

necessary? good question.. what r the alternatives?

[paul]

It is quite possible that the US will go the way of the Soviet Union and break up into regional groupings.

[mgc]

that could be a very good reason for the us government to have (/create) a common enemy (real or imagined)..

[Henka]

May 13, 2011 20:35:19 GMT 9.5 mgc said:

is the usa a necessary evil?
its actions (far as i can see) serve to increase or maintain its own power over the world.. it doesnt shun violence and unethical behaviour to achieve this goal..

is that "evil"? imo, yes..

necessary? good question.. what r the alternatives?

You need to re-examine your premise.

[Henka]

May 14, 2011 5:56:21 GMT 9.5 paul said:

It is quite possible that the US will go the way of the Soviet Union and break up into regional groupings.

No, it won't.

[Henka]

May 14, 2011 8:11:26 GMT 9.5 mgc said:

that could be a very good reason for the us government to have (/create) a common enemy (real or imagined)..

Conspiracy nonsense.

[mgc]

thnx for bringing that up henka..
i was just revisiting some old 9/11 stuff today.. seems like the majority finally caught up with the conspiracy "nutters".. how much do u know about the history of the us regarding false flag operations?

[paul]

These days only the NATO operations are mostly not false flag

[Henka]

May 15, 2011 5:47:59 GMT 9.5 mgc said:

thnx for bringing that up henka..
i was just revisiting some old 9/11 stuff today.. seems like the majority finally caught up with the conspiracy "nutters".. how much do u know about the history of the us regarding false flag operations?

If this is going to turn into an anti-US forum, I will cease posting here. I don't know what your purpose in continually baiting me with these anti-US tidbits is, mgc, but I find them highly offensive and counter to the entire purpose of this board, which is the exploration of spirituality and esoteric Freemasonry. Go play your silly games on David Icke's forums, and leave the pursuits of adulthood to the adults, please.

[mgc]

this is not an anti us forum (far as im concerned).. ill be happy to xpose any1, anywhere.. horrendous moral laws of the more radical muslim dogmas, human rights in china, the greed of the few over the backs of the many, corruption, ignorance.. u name it, i oppose it..

so..

how much do u know about the history of the us regarding FFO's?

counter to the entire purpose of this board

au contraire mon frere..
dont u oppose what u consider not done?
dont u stand up against injustice?
who teach those morals?

imo this is right at the heart of the matter..

[Henka]

If it weren't for the US, you would be under the auspices of the Soviet Union right now, after the Nazi regime was eventually defeated, at even greater cost than it was. It would do well for you to remember that.

[mgc]

sure, we still remember that every year and i thank the south african, australian, canadian, maroccan, polish, english and american (and prolly a few other nationalities) soldiers who liberated us, but that doesnt mean those countries can do whatever the hell they want afterwards..

under the auspices of the Soviet Union

shocking is that it was fear of the russian bear that was the prime reason the invasion took place.. i even suspect the american government was ok with a nazi controled mainland europe as long as they were winning in the east.. i think they were well informed enough to have a clue about the consequences of the nazis anti-semitic doctrines, yet war was not declared until december of '41, after germany declared war on the usa..

why not invade sooner? milions were suffering.. did they not care?

[Henka]

May 15, 2011 9:22:14 GMT 9.5 mgc said:

sure, we still remember that every year and i thank the south african, australian, canadian, maroccan, polish, english and american (and prolly a few other nationalities) soldiers who liberated us, but that doesnt mean those countries can do whatever the hell they want afterwards..

under the auspices of the Soviet Union

shocking is that it was fear of the russian bear that was the prime reason the invasion took place.. i even suspect the american government was ok with a nazi controled mainland europe as long as they were winning in the east.. i think they were well informed enough to have a clue about the consequences of the nazis anti-semitic doctrines, yet war was not declared until december of '41, after germany declared war on the usa..

why not invade sooner? milions were suffering.. did they not care?

America had a policy of non-interventionism, until directly attacked by Japan and war was declared by Germany. The US supported Britain through the Lend-Lease program, supplying war materials. The Soviets were our ally against the Nazi regime - and the extent of Hitler's "Final Solution" was not known until the liberation of the concentration camps. Your grasp of history is tenuous, at best, and skewed through the lens of European socialism

[mgc]

May 18, 1942 - The New York Times reports on an inside page that Nazis have machine-gunned over 100,000 Jews in the Baltic states, 100,000 in Poland and twice as many in western Russia.

if the new york times knew that then, imagine what the us government knew (prolly earlier).. there must be intelligence reports regarding this..

milions were suffering.. did they not care?

America had a policy of non-interventionism

that much is "clear", but the question was; was that morally justifiable? they didnt invade normandy till april 1944..

The Soviets were our ally

If it weren't for the US, you would be under the auspices of the Soviet Union right now

hence my comment:

it was fear of the russian bear that was the prime reason the invasion took place

and not the massacre of innocent civies which was public knowledge long before april 1944..

Your grasp of history is tenuous, at best, and skewed through the lens of European socialism

is this comment worthy a mason?
stick to the facts pls..

[Henka]

Of course the Normandy invasion wasn't until 1944. If you will do a little more research, you will realize that North Africa had to be taken first, so the Nazi's would not be at the Allies' backs. It took that long to secure our positions to set the plan for the landing in motion. That you equate that with somehow withholding aid is foolish and disingenuous, and also calls into the question the motives of Britain and Canada. The Soviet Union at that time did not appear to have the domination of Western Europe in mind, although after the War, their motives became apparent, when they forced Eastern Europe under their domination, which you conveniently overlook. You also seem to forget that they tried to foment communist revolution throughout the world, and are responsible for the rise of Islamic terrorism by training, through the KGB, Yassar Arafat and Hammas. The plan was to bog down the US in the Middle East and drain our resources.

And yes, it is a comment worthy of a Mason, which I believe you are not.

[mgc]

Of course the Normandy invasion wasn't until 1944

u dont have to be a military genius to see that normandy is backed by the uk, not north africa.. italy was the intended target for that operation.. it proved partially succesful cause they quickly changed sides, but as a road to germany it was a failure..

calls into the question the motives of Britain and Canada

i dont think the canadian navy would have made much of a a dent in the german defense on its own and im sure the english navy had more then enough trouble of its own.. no, the usa needed to take the initiative..

they tried to foment communist revolution throughout the world

when was that?

The Soviet Union at that time did not appear to have the domination of Western Europe in mind

but u just said they had world-domination in mind?

and are responsible for the rise of Islamic terrorism by training, through the KGB, Yassar Arafat and Hammas

im sure both sides tried to gain an edge over the other.. there r no innocent parties here xept the massacred civillians..

the embargo against japan as a result of its xpansion into china prolly caused japan (and with japan, germany),which felt it deserved a status equal to the usa and uk, to declare war on the usa..

[paul]

On a more fundamental level, different regions of the world have different inner sponsors.

Thus as St Paul says "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

There are higher frequency beings who seek to recruit humans as their instruments and to extend their influence by physical and psychological force. The Middle East is an obvious example with the Arabs being quite open about their on-going struggle against "crusaders"

[Henka]

May 15, 2011 12:50:10 GMT 9.5 mgc said:

Of course the Normandy invasion wasn't until 1944

u dont have to be a military genius to see that normandy is backed by the uk, not north africa.. italy was the intended target for that operation.. it proved partially succesful cause they quickly changed sides, but as a road to germany it was a failure.

You don't have to be a military genius to see that, if the Nazi's controlled North Africa, they would have been able to come around in behind the Allies from their bases there. The Germans expected us to invade Italy - which is why we landed in France.

i dont think the canadian navy would have made much of a a dent in the german defense on its own and im sure the english navy had more then enough trouble of its own.. no, the usa needed to take the initiative..

when was that?

You are a complete idiot. The US drew down it's armed forces after WW I. It took time to rebuilt our Army and Navy. We had suffered a major blow in Honolulu when the Japanese took out a major portion of the Pacific fleet. You conveniently forget that we had to convert or entire industrial base from civilian manufacture to war production, and this coming off of the Great Depression. We had to supply not only ourselves, but everyone else as well. Where do you think Britain and Canada got their tanks from? Transport planes, etc.?

but u just said they had world-domination in mind?

and are responsible for the rise of Islamic terrorism by training, through the KGB, Yassar Arafat and Hammas

im sure both sides tried to gain an edge over the other.. there r no innocent parties here xept the massacred civillians..

Your reading comprehension is lacking. I said we had no idea at the time that their aim was the domination of Western Europe. It became apparent after the end of hostilities, when all the countries of Eastern Europe were forced into the Soviet Sphere. The US did not[/i] retain liberated territory, we rebuilt Western Europe. The reason you people were able to sit back and create your little socialist paradises (that you now can't pay for anymore) is because you relied on the US to protect you from the Soviet bear until the collapse of the Soviet Union. You seem to have little knowledge of the entire period of the Cold War. You are young, and these things seem to be ancient history to you. I can remember doing "duck and cover" drills in school in the 1960s, because of the threat of nuclear war from the Soviets.

the embargo against japan as a result of its xpansion into china prolly caused japan (and with japan, germany),which felt it deserved a status equal to the usa and uk, to declare war on the usa..

The embargo against Japan was a result of their Imperial conquest of the Philippines, China, India and Burma. You conveniently overlook their aggression. My Grandfathers fought there in that theater, my great Uncles in both Europe and the Pacific.

[paul]

The German-US industrial relationships were quite complex

"Both General Motors and Ford insist that they bear little or no responsibility for the operations of their German subsidiaries, which controlled 70 percent of the German car market at the outbreak of war in 1939 and rapidly retooled themselves to become suppliers of war materiel to the German army."

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

"1939: GERMANY. The Ford Motor Company makes a personal present of 35,000 Reichsmarks to Adolf Hitler as a token of its undying affection for the Fuhrer on the occasion of his fiftieth birthday........ Two weeks after the Nazi invasion of Poland and the resultant declaration of war on Germany by Britain, General Motors’ James Mooney meets in Berlin with Adolf Hitler to arrange the conversion of the GM armaments factory in Russelsheim to the production of engines and other parts for the Nazis’ Junkers JU88 “Wunderbomber” to be used to bomb Britain into submission. Nazi award recipient Mooney later returns to the Third Reich to tour the converted plant with Luftwaffe chief, Hermann Goering."

mtwsfh.blogspot.com/2008/11/1939-1940-wars-just-good-business.html




"Roosevelt revised the Neutrality Act of 1935 (no sale of arms to belligerents), asking Congress to pass a Neutrality Act of 1939 which would permit warring nations to buy US arms as long as they paid cash and transported the weapons in their own ships.

i. Isolationists were infuriated by this proposition
ii. After 6 weeks of debate, the Act was passed"

ibhistory.wikidot.com/3-16

[mgc]

The Germans expected us to invade Italy - which is why we landed in France.

italy was invaded before france..

if the Nazi's controlled North Africa, they would have been able to come around in behind the Allies from their bases there.

invading normandy or stopping the invading allies from north africa? oh come on, that makes no sense at all..

The US drew down it's armed forces after WW I. It took time to rebuilt our Army and Navy.

In the aftermath of World War I, the British Empire had the world's largest and most powerful navy, followed closely by the United States and more distantly by Japan. All three embarked upon large programs of new capital ships (battleships and battlecruisers). In 1920, the United States had declared an aim to produce a navy "second to none", and had already laid down keels for five battleships and four battlecruisers

wiki

We had suffered a major blow in Honolulu when the Japanese took out a major portion of the Pacific fleet.

if only u had known about the japanese intentions, those at pearl harbor would have been better prepared to receive them..

the Great Depression.

do u remember the cause of the great depression?
and its aim?

we had to convert our entire industrial base from civilian manufacture to war production

Where do you think Britain and Canada got their tanks from? Transport planes, etc.?

the arms industry florished.. some ppl made a lot of money..

I said we had no idea at the time that their aim was the domination of Western Europe.

when did it become clear they wanted to "foment communist revolution throughout the world" ?

because of the threat of nuclear war from the Soviets.

and vice versa of course.. hiroshima and nagasaki will not have gone unnoticed by the russians..