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Post by paul on Sept 21, 2011 14:54:33 GMT 9.5
.... A group mind establishes itself over time.... Are there any spiritual analogues to the group mind? Do those analogues attach to lodges?
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Post by tamrin on Sept 21, 2011 15:06:56 GMT 9.5
.... A group mind establishes itself over time.... Are there any spiritual analogues to the group mind? Do those analogues attach to lodges? More than that I do not wish to utter (especially here and to you) and thereby cheapen those experiences (I well know your wont to run off on ridiculous tangents).
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Post by paul on Sept 21, 2011 15:20:45 GMT 9.5
Surely you are able at least to indicate the existence of higher analogues as we already know "as below so above" and that surely tells us of their existence.
You could start by applying the Qabalistic 5-fold categorisation of human energy bodies to group entities
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Post by LorrB on Sept 21, 2011 16:01:29 GMT 9.5
You could start by applying the Qabalistic 5-fold categorisation of human energy bodies to group entities Can you enlarge on this please?
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Post by LorrB on Sept 21, 2011 16:08:43 GMT 9.5
I have always understood that in lodge, or anywhere else for that matter, the power of me is multiplied by the power of you and you and you when working together. The energy is raised exponentially.
And THAT is why it is an imperative that there be no discord in an open lodge.
I think this is what is meant by what Jesus said in the Bible .. "When two or more are gathered in my name, I am there".
On the negative side, we have all witnessed how a crowd can descend into a mob very quickly. Good people will find themselves acting badly.
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 21, 2011 17:02:09 GMT 9.5
Developing on from this, I have a theory, one that I am quite happy for masons to shoot down in flames. Once you have:- 1. Become conscious of/established a personal energy temple, you can: 2. Combine with others (whether in a Lodge, a church, a dojo, a juggling club [seriously that isnt flippant - the Zen of Juggling is a great little book to read]). This then, as LorrB noted: 3. Enables the sum to much more than the individual parts. Now 4. If you are sufficiently skilled you can balance a lodge and when you do this: 5. It should be possible to knowingly connect with divine energies at that level. (and herein lies a big danger zone for I hope obvious reasons of darkness) 6. Once that is achieved you should be able to connect with every lodge who can do likewise. And this will 7. Help enable the rebalancing of this planet at an energetic level. As I have been theorising for some years now to achieve this,one way could be to:- 1.Get back to basics so that energies are more refined and less polluted (simple things like living the tenets more often). This will 2. Make it a bit easier to rebalance and connect, as well as having enormous personal benefits. 3. The way that I visualise it is through energy flows, focusing themselves through the crystal grid of this planet. But that is simply a visualisation technique to make sense of it. 4. But when I do this I see that many lodges have dark clouds of dust needing spring cleaning, usually sitting above but in front of the master and wardens chairs, acting as a barrier to connection. 5. Spring clean as outlines above and hey presto, job done. 6. Global result a reilluminated masonic world. Exactly the same could be achieved in churches, dojos etc, the new age, etc. It must be a mystery. But he ho its just a theory.
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Post by paul on Sept 21, 2011 17:28:34 GMT 9.5
Stewart
You are quite correct. While most groups that succeed in building group energy fields do it by decades of joint activity in a spirit of brotherly love, those that can work with the planes and associated entities can (under suitable patronage) build quite refined light bodies for particular tasks.
As for spring cleaning, a practical knowledge of the planes allows an efficient cleansing - within the limits of karma and group/individual willingness to release the past
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Post by paul on Sept 21, 2011 17:31:52 GMT 9.5
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 21, 2011 17:56:01 GMT 9.5
It is easy to see you in the RAF in WW2.
Try the middle of the 19th century for the navy. How about the Far East including Singapore?
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 21, 2011 19:53:17 GMT 9.5
It is easy to see you in the RAF in WW2. Try the middle of the 19th century for the navy. How about the Far East including Singapore? Must be a poltergeist Beijing has a much warmer glow to it than Singapore, though indeed you are correct Paul. I once many moons ago seriously considered applying for the Singapore police force. I actually have much more difficulty with the navy part. I would guess that I would have had quite a rough time. Though I can tell you with absolute certainty that from my "reconnection" at the Naval Museum there is absolutely no need for me to open up old wounds there, at this time anyway. I know that simply by returning there I had done what I needed to do, and it acted as a signpost that I was on the right track, and a key that directly enabled me to move forwards.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 21, 2011 21:12:29 GMT 9.5
I have always understood that in lodge, or anywhere else for that matter, the power of me is multiplied by the power of you and you and you when working together. The energy is raised exponentially. That is a common, dangerous misconception. No egregore, no matter what rapport it members may share or what charisma it leader may have, can be as focused or as organized as an individual. A disciplined individual can easily tyle him or her self against any group soul. Herein lies the danger to the undisciplined, who may believe the group soul is more powerful than they: That belief may give licence to relaxing the integrity of one's self and attributing responsibility for our choices to the egregore. However, there is no getting around that responsibility and the subsequent accountability resting with us as individuals. Ah!!! What have I said, what done? More than I ought, I fear.
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 22, 2011 1:47:02 GMT 9.5
Tamrin I may be about to make a fool of myself but I think that you have misread what LorrB wrote. Please bear with me as I plod through I have always understood that in lodge, or anywhere else for that matter, the power of me is multiplied by the power of you and you and you when working together. The energy is raised exponentially. That is a common, dangerous misconception. Noted for the moment. I dont disagree with this Tamrin. (I am not experienced enough in this esoteric area to positively agree) You are far more experienced than me here Tamrin, I just wonder about the word "easily". Also if you were in a dark lodge seeking personal gain then surely it could be difficult to resist? You may be very disciplined but wanting the power etc could make it difficult to tyle effectively. yes/no? And furthermore if you fully tyle yourself you can miss out on so much - (one harsh lesson that I learnt from listening to similar advice from David Icke, Tamrin. You and Icke giving not dissimilar advice . And this is where I think you are answering a different point to that LorrB was making (just watch LorrB come along and slap me around the ears for being a dunce). The way that I read her words was that she was talking about the "group effect" not about power. Your football match example is a good one here. The match fervor may take over individuals for a while, but it will soon dissipate, it is not more powerful it simply "takes over" for people who dont read a book like you do to distract. I agree Tamrin. Again I agree. Stop being so coy, if you shouldn't write something dont. You are a Magus et all Tamrin - lead, inspire, dont play games or be so indecisive. Now Tamrin if I have misunderstood you (or your LorrB) please tell me. To illustrate the point that I am making Tamrin, imagine yourself as a mason in one of Franz Bardons "99" Lodges form his Novel Frabrato. You would be disciplined, well motivated, but as you were on the dark side you would be consumed by power etc. I think that anyone in such a position, with the best will in the world, would struggle to tyle effectively and remain stronger than the group will. In more everyday terms think of any Lodge that you may be aware of that is perhaps family controlled or which seeks to be a business networking hub to the degree of stitching up the local market (and please dont give me the "Lodges never do such things speech" this is for illustration of my point) - it could be hard in one of those lodges to remain effectively tyled against lodge will, no matter how disciplined you are. Just some thoughts.
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Post by paul on Sept 22, 2011 5:23:57 GMT 9.5
... No egregore, no matter what rapport it members may share or what charisma it leader may have, can be as focused or as organized as an individual. . I am not sure how wide an experience you have here, but I would suggest that group karma is an example of an effect operating in the group regardless of the intent of 99.9% of humans A disciplined individual can easily tyle him or her self against any group soul..... Given preconditions such as purity and the nature of personal, group, national and planetary karma.
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Post by paul on Sept 22, 2011 5:26:39 GMT 9.5
There is also the issue of the sort of entities that overlight and/or feed off the group work. Some entities may be capable of temporarily raising the egregore to surprising levels of effectiveness.
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Post by paul on Sept 22, 2011 8:19:22 GMT 9.5
...You may be very disciplined but wanting the power etc could make it difficult to tyle effectively. yes/no? And furthermore if you fully tyle yourself you can miss out on so much -... Stewart These are both good observations: - in the absence of purity it is very difficult to protect (tyle) oneself completely - the greater the degree of protection, the less the contact with the rest of Creation. Thus the initiate aims for purity - only 1st subplane matter in each plane of the light body. This allows the initiate to interact with less refined beings without adverse effect. The purity of the initiate is only on the planes that are under his/her control. There are always planes not yet managed and it is difficult to avoid the agendas of entities operating on those planes unless the initiate has suitable patronage from on high. In Masonry we invoke the GAOTU to assist.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 22, 2011 16:08:41 GMT 9.5
Stop being so coy, if you shouldn't write something dont. You are a Magus et all Tamrin - lead, inspire, dont play games or be so indecisive. My apologies to you Stewart, that was a cryptic reference, the context and significant of which will be understood by Masons of a particular degree.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 18:08:28 GMT 9.5
Think "perambulations".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 18:17:10 GMT 9.5
There is also the issue of the sort of entities that overlight and/or feed off the group work. Some entities may be capable of temporarily raising the egregore to surprising levels of effectiveness. The means are psychological. Peer pressure and indoctrination. Each individual remains in control and remains accountable, even if they try to kid themselves otherwise and choose to go along with the group. There are no supernatural influences. If you think otherwise, try collectively willing me to die overnight or at the very least try to disturb my sleep. You have my permission.
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Post by paul on Sept 22, 2011 19:10:15 GMT 9.5
...There are no supernatural influences. .... We had a thread on that and it was pretty hard to come up with genuinely supernatural powers. From my perspective, every plane of existence (of which the lowest are consciously occupied by humans) has flora and fauna - as above so below. They are of course completely natural - existing within their ecologies. Some of them however, being much higher in frequency than human light bodies, can potentially, even accidentally, be destructive to humans.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 22, 2011 19:47:48 GMT 9.5
From my perspective, every plane of existence (of which the lowest are consciously occupied by humans) has flora and fauna - as above so below. From you perspective!? I suggest you are woofully confusing the domain of myths, symbols, memes, archetypes, etc., with planes of existence (I note that again you relegate humans to an inferior position!?). I further suggest the term "planes" should be consider as subsystems within systems, within greater systems, etc. As already discussed each system or plane has its own reality (remember the analogy of a liver cell transcending its plane). A sub-system in transcending its own plane can only have a vague apprehension of the unity of which it is part. Similarly, in going within, a system can only apprehend a sense of order or disorder in one of its component systems, no more. While the one life is manifest in all these planes, The living, social, intellectual contexts of these other planes are ultimately impenetrable mysteries to all but the Most High.
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