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Post by paul on Jun 18, 2013 7:47:49 GMT 9.5
So have we made any progress in understanding what is the essential core of Masonry - recognisable despite differences in culture and ritual?
For example, the native cultures of various countries retain Masonic-like societies. Could they be genuine Masonry, isolated thousands of years ago?
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Post by LorrB on Jun 18, 2013 8:02:28 GMT 9.5
Can you give us some clues for Googling?
I know that the Australian Aboriginal peoples have recognisable 'masonic' traces in their culture. Our regular guest of many names is quite familiar with that story, maybe he would care to share what knows about that subject.
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Post by paul on Jun 18, 2013 8:08:22 GMT 9.5
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Post by LorrB on Jun 18, 2013 9:38:11 GMT 9.5
that should keep us busy.. I'm going to keep my lips sealed on this one and hope that other readers or members might like to take up the challenge and check out the leads. (And then share what they discover with us).
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Post by Darryl Kerrigan on Jun 18, 2013 17:49:22 GMT 9.5
Our regular guest of many names is quite familiar with that story, maybe he would care to share what knows about that subject. "Tell 'em they're dreamin'!" - Darryl Kerrigan.
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Post by stepnwolf on Jun 18, 2013 19:21:26 GMT 9.5
We have not made much progress with this. Moses supposedly held a lodge in the desert. Presumably it was Egyptian - KST did not exist. How would we recognise Moses' ritual as Masonic? I find the assertion that Moses held lodge in the desert just a tad far-fetched. What are the sources for this belief? How would he tyle a tent? Of course we are assuming that the Exodus did happen, which some Semitic scholars doubt. If I were a Hebrew in the desert, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with our oppressors, the Egyptians, even it were the case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
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Post by stepnwolf on Jun 18, 2013 19:30:48 GMT 9.5
Have we taken into account the theory of archetypes, an alternate explanation for similar groups arising in disparate parts of the world? Or does it merely cloud the issues? Might there be at the level of a collective unconscious a pattern, called an archetype, for such associations to develop? Indeed, there is still a causal relationship, but at a much higher level.
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Post by paul on Jun 18, 2013 19:59:09 GMT 9.5
>I find the assertion that Moses held lodge in the desert just a tad far-fetched.
Leaving aside the many-stranded issue of Biblical veracity, the story of Moses allows us to think about transition of Masonry from one culture to another.
Having thought that it is not too hard to find traces from perhaps 5 cultures in main stream Masonry.
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Post by paul on Jun 18, 2013 20:02:41 GMT 9.5
>Have we taken into account the theory of archetypes As you may know there are words that appear to be common across many languages - same sound and meaning with moderate variations in consonants. Would that be from archetypes or travel? "23 “ultraconserved words” that have remained largely unchanged for 15,000 years. Words that sound and mean the same thing in different languages are called “cognates”" www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/words-that-last/
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Post by LorrB on Jun 18, 2013 20:05:17 GMT 9.5
Our regular guest of many names is quite familiar with that story, maybe he would care to share what knows about that subject. "Tell 'em they're dreamin'!" - Darryl Kerrigan. My mistake, I thought you had a genuine heartfelt interest in this area.
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Post by stepnwolf on Jun 18, 2013 21:44:12 GMT 9.5
>Have we taken into account the theory of archetypes As you may know there are words that appear to be common across many languages - same sound and meaning with moderate variations in consonants. Would that be from archetypes or travel? "23 “ultraconserved words” that have remained largely unchanged for 15,000 years. Words that sound and mean the same thing in different languages are called “cognates”" www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/words-that-last/I'm just a little suspicious of the data. The comparison is among language groups, not individual languages. So the sample would be much larger than suggested in the article. The larger the sample the more likely to find homophones that are also synonyms. Still, it is an interesting presentation of data and a comparison of languages would be even more compelling. An explanation of travel would be easier to accept in many cases, but archetypes would explain it all.
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Post by paul on Jun 19, 2013 7:45:47 GMT 9.5
> archetypes would explain it all
I find that explaining (away?) is not always satisfying. I prefer to go further and say: If this is so, what are the implications that ought to be observable.
I seem to recall Ward providing some evidence of Australian aborigines introducing the new initiate through an arch formed by the initiates holding white wands. It is remarkable how detailed archetypes can become.
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Post by Darryl Kerrigan on Jun 19, 2013 18:49:02 GMT 9.5
"Tell 'em they're dreamin'!" - Darryl Kerrigan. My mistake, I thought you had a genuine heartfelt interest in this area. Do not mistake my lack of interest in discussing such subjects HERE with a lack of interest in the subjects.
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Post by LorrB on Jun 20, 2013 10:26:23 GMT 9.5
I have noted that you aren't much into discussing things. Can I assume that your motives here are not brotherly?
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Post by LorrB on Jun 20, 2013 11:48:09 GMT 9.5
How to recognise Masonry...
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Post by paul on Jun 20, 2013 12:35:29 GMT 9.5
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Post by Brotherly Love on Jun 21, 2013 17:47:11 GMT 9.5
I have noted that you aren't much into discussing things. Can I assume that your motives here are not brotherly? I am motivated by love of my Brethren and of truth and justice.
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Post by stepnwolf on Jun 22, 2013 11:07:13 GMT 9.5
Idries Shah maintains that Sufism (such as expressed by Rumi) is the basis of much of Freemasonry. I am not sure however that Sufism is the total of Masonry. For example there is a reason for stating that the Freemasons' lodge extends from E to W and N to S and from the center/surface of the Earth to the Heavens, and that is because Masons have group bwork to do there. Is there such a concept in Sufism? It's also been said that we can never know Sufism from the outside any more than an inquirer can know the Craft from exposés and the like. I'd be bold enough to say that Sufism is no more a body of knowledge or of secrets than is Freemasonry. They both facilitate an inner experience beyond words. It's often been said that the great secret of Masonry is that there are no secrets. The same be said of Sufism I imagine. I am unwilling to admit that one system emerged from the other, but surly they drank at the same spring.
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Post by Sir Richard Burton on Jun 22, 2013 17:16:52 GMT 9.5
It's also been said that we can never know Sufism from the outside any more than an inquirer can know the Craft from exposés and the like. I'd be bold enough to say that Sufism is no more a body of knowledge or of secrets than is Freemasonry. They both facilitate an inner experience beyond words. It's often been said that the great secret of Masonry is that there are no secrets. The same be said of Sufism I imagine. I am unwilling to admit that one system emerged from the other, but surly they drank at the same spring. "Sufi-ism, the Eastern parent of Freemasonry.” - Sir Richard Burton. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
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Post by LorrB on Jun 22, 2013 20:36:08 GMT 9.5
Peculiar how the esoteric sides of Christanity, Islam, Judaism .. All meet and agree in perfect harmony ..
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