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Post by paul on Mar 9, 2012 10:10:35 GMT 9.5
The ladders of Horus (the Lord of Life) and of Mithras are preserved as a practical path but the use has declined because of the decline of qabalism in Masonry - understanding was lost. The Mithraic version is very similar to that used in the 18th
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Post by paul on Mar 9, 2012 10:13:30 GMT 9.5
The use of the working tools in a moral (inner sense) is preserved in symbolic form but the practical use has been lost.
Amos 7:8 And the LORD said to me, "Amos, what do you see?" I answered, "A plumb line." And the Lord replied, "I will test my people with this plumb line. I will no longer ignore all their sins.
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Post by paul on Mar 9, 2012 10:14:39 GMT 9.5
In a Freemason's lodge we are told of 6 lights. What are the lights concealed by the symbols?
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Post by jackjack on Mar 9, 2012 17:43:20 GMT 9.5
But how can it be lost? Looking at the matter from a Christian worldview, I see many times where it is said that God's law is the light that is to guide our lives. If we live by the light of truth, we won't walk in darkness. Oh; and where did you find that picture of the ladder?
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Post by paul on Mar 9, 2012 19:13:00 GMT 9.5
By lost I mean lost from Masonic lodges. It is of course possible for a brother to rediscover Masonic science.
As for the light of truth that rather depends on whose truth.
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Post by jackjack on Mar 10, 2012 5:40:08 GMT 9.5
But not all truths that claim to be truths are actually truths; in fact, what many people call truth is many times illusion.
So I guess the real question is how one comes to an understanding of the truth. I think eternal life is something that is real and that exists; however, it is God who grants it to those Who believe in Him and what He stands for and what He says about Himself.
For the fountain of living water never runs dry.
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Post by paul on Mar 10, 2012 6:03:02 GMT 9.5
I don't find Truth to be particularly a useful term - being a reification en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_%28fallacy%29It is better perhaps to talk about being true to some principle or relationship. Is the concept of eternal life derived from death of the physical body? If the soul is immortal, what need is there of a granting of eternal life?
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Post by jackjack on Mar 16, 2012 3:40:28 GMT 9.5
The concept of eternal life is spoken of in many esoteric writings; however, defining it is what proves to be problematic. We so often forget...in yesteryear, they didn't have all the books we did. They worked, worked, and worked some more, wrote stories/biographies/whatever based off of their experiences, and began the process of writing. The trouble becomes when we become more dependent on the writings then we are in discovering what really and actually works. In a forum much like this one in cyberspace, I once spoke with some guys who thought they understood Buddhism; I asked them what they thought Buddhism was; when I began to start out with giving them the basics, they cracked up laughing and told me that I was crazy and that in order to truly understand Buddhism, I had to read the book "Buddhism Made Simple". Case in point? These young men thought they understood Buddhism; however, as Pike states, they merely THOUGHT that they understood it (which is illusion). When I, however, proceeded to give them the simple basics of it, their dependance on the illusion was so strong that, in accordance with their personality, because they couldn't understand something, they had to do SOMETHING with it even though it didn't make sense... ...so they laughed (in some weird way, a kind of...comic relief.) In the same way, even though we may not understand it, truth and illusion do exist; the challenge therefore is to at least try to understand what it is. In some small way, Paul, I do agree with you that upon observing death in the physical, people ask themselves what happens after. But...ask yourself what about the mystics who wrote about death? They had to have seen something beyond this life in order to understand that there is a life after this one; in a sense, they snapped into a vision and saw a great and glorious place where people who loved God went and they also saw a terrifying place where people who wanted nothing to do with God went to. After the vision, they went and told others about what they saw. Now yes, there are hundreds of thousands of visions where people say that they've had such and such an experience with the afterlife but then, when they describe it, something about what they say doesn't sound right; you can't believe them all. Only a small handful can be accurate; for eternal things are eternal and DO NOT CHANGE. For instance; I think we are all well aware that there are such a thing as spiritual keys and high ranking angels. Some of us may be able to describe exactly what certain angels look like and things like that; of course, then there are other folks who can tell you when angels or demons are in a room or when there's a trap, when there's not a trap, what kind of people are good or terribly rotten, visit different places in their sleep and describe the place they went to flawlessly. In a sense, we've all had common, accurate mystical experiences; however, the KIND of experience and the WAY the mystical experience is experienced isn't the same. For instance, if you're like Alastair Crowley, the kind of angels you regularly communicate with isn't going to be the same kind that regularly visit a blameless Assembly of God pastor's church; a blameless AG pastor doesn't go around invoking angels and talking to them. His job is to talk to God's Spirit; once in a while, whenever God wants, He will send angel(s) to the pastor for different reasons; maybe they'll give the pastor updates on what's going on in the church, I don't know; the point is, they do what God sends them to do and once they're done, they disappear. God gave us hands, feet, a spiritual mind, and a brain. Our task isn't to go around asking angels to do God's work. Our job is to do what God wants; in a sense, His angels' job is to make sure the cogs stay moving.
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Post by jackjack on Mar 16, 2012 4:00:44 GMT 9.5
Oh; I probably should've asked for clarification.
By immortality of the soul, do you mean eternal life or do you mean, like, reincarnation where the soul keeps evolving in a sense from one form to the next?
Or is eternal life, to you, this kind of reincarnation of sorts?
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Post by paul on Mar 16, 2012 6:04:20 GMT 9.5
... Our task isn't to go around asking angels to do God's work... It may be that each of the kingdoms in Creation has its own role to keep the Creation functioning properly. I would be surprised if the various kingdoms did not need to cooperate to achieve that.
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Post by paul on Mar 16, 2012 6:07:15 GMT 9.5
By immortality of the soul, do you mean eternal life or do you mean, like, reincarnation where the soul keeps evolving in a sense from one form to the next? Or is eternal life, to you, this kind of reincarnation of sorts? Eternal life is essentially immortality of the physical body. The soul already is immortal (does not die) but still it has a beginning and an end. The human, through an upright life can contribute spiritual substances to the soul body so that it becomes more refined. Eventually, however, the human individual is able express Spirit directly and there is no longer a need for the soul body and its substance is reabsorbed into the greater system. "When you have seen me you have seen the Father for He lives in me and I in Him"
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Post by jackjack on Mar 21, 2012 2:31:17 GMT 9.5
Eternal life is essentially immortality of the physical body. The soul already is immortal (does not die) but still it has a beginning and an end. Eventually, however, the human individual is able express Spirit directly and there is no longer a need for the soul body and its substance is reabsorbed into the greater system. "When you have seen me you have seen the Father for He lives in me and I in Him I think that you and I can agree that the spiritual world has existed since the beginning of time itself and is therefore vastly superior to time, matter, and space itself. If it is, by far, superior to these, then how can you say that things that consist of a spiritual nature come to an end? Maybe I'm wrong but I think that even the fathers of Masonry would disagree with you as they made it clear that Freemasonry was a compilation of spiritual teachings handed down from one generation to the next. From my own mystical experiences, I have discovered that there are spiritual laws, value neutral, that have existed since the beginning of time itself; the awareness of things that I became aware of when I prayed were confirmed later when I read several manuscripts dating from before the time of Christ that discussed spiritual matters (and the authors were anything but Christian). I also read from manuscripts older then these that confirmed certain spiritual truths that I happened to have learned while I was in prayer communing with God. Therefore, how can it be that certain wisemen, from before the time of Christ, discoursed on things that I, a teenager at the time and in the 21st century, stumbled upon? This is why I have to strongly disagree with the notion that spiritual things will suddenly be no more; for there are certain spiritual things that will never die. And in regards to the Bible verse you mentioned, humankind isn't the exact copy of God. Only Christ is the exact copy of God! Teachings like Joseph Smith's come from evil spirits who see an opportunity to take advantage of people's pride--"as God once was, man is and as God is man may become." Such teaching is for people who are looking to have their egos puffed up with pride. But God, since the beginning of time, has resisted the proud and gave grace to the humble. So let us not exalt ourselves to the highest heavens like Lucifer did; instead, let us give thanks to God for making us and giving us the opportunity to receive eternal life through His Son Jesus the Messiah. God is very pleased with humility and He rewards those who faithfully serve Him with an upright heart. Let us give thanks for all the good things He has done.
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Post by paul on Mar 21, 2012 7:47:39 GMT 9.5
... the spiritual world has existed since the beginning of time itself and is therefore vastly superior to time, matter, and space itself. If it is, by far, superior to these, then how can you say that things that consist of a spiritual nature come to an end? .... It may be easier to consider a spectrum extending from dense matter to pure spirit. In this context the human soul body, technically exists within gaseous layer of the cosmic physical plane. The solar intelligences that inform the soul body, are much more profound, seeming to me to exist on the cosmic astral plane. When no longer necessary to the human the solar intelligence returns to its source. Substance on all levels cycles through the bodies of the flora and fauna of that plane. As below so above. As a philosophical statement, all that seems unchanging to humans may be called spirit. As the human unfolds more is understood and the boundary of spirit recedes.
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Post by jackjack on Mar 21, 2012 17:47:38 GMT 9.5
What is the spectrum? The human soul/body? What is the "gaseous layer" of the cosmic physical plane?" What are solar intelligences? Are they the higher ranking spirits in charge of the sun? Define substance; do you mean matter, energy, or what?
Here is a surface reading on what I think you're trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong); you're telling me that the human spirit and soul exist somewhere in the mid heavens (assuming that "gaseous layer" is the mid heavens, between the sky and outer space). The higher beings who communicate with the human soul exist only in one's mind (assuming that the astral plane is a reality that is projected from one's mind) and when the human being doesn't need them anymore, the spirit goes back to where it came from. Finally, the...essences/matter on the physical and spiritual planes "recycle" and all which seems unchanging, to the human, is spiritual; however, as everything has a way of "recycling", so the human "unfolds" and understands more then he once did (presumably, in this case, meaning that the "higher understanding" is that everything keeps "recycling"--even in the spiritual).
Is this what you're saying?
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Post by Henka on Mar 22, 2012 5:07:41 GMT 9.5
*cue Bible verse and reference to Jesus*
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Post by paul on Mar 22, 2012 8:14:02 GMT 9.5
Solids, liquids, gases, aether, astral, mental, buddhic, etc. A structure on the higher mental plane used as an interface (transformer) between higher energies and the human personality The 7 planes of our existence (physical, astral, mental etc) are subplanes of the Cosmic Physical. The mental plane is the gaseous layer of the Cosmic Physical - by analogy Solar intelligences are those intelligences that currently operate (are assigned to) the human souls. They are also called manasaputras http://m_euser.tripod.com/articles/theo2.htm The are certainly related to the Being that manifests as the Sun but their functional relationship is not clear to me. Substance is that which stands under. On each plane there is substance that is used for forming bodies of manifestation. The terms energy and substance are interchangeable. The human soul exists towards the lower end of the matter-spirit spectrum. There is no particular spatial requirement except to oversight the relevant persona - if the soul deems it suitable. There are higher beings that operate the human soul just as there is an intelligence that operates the human body (digestion, growth, healing etc) The higher beings that operate the human soul come from beyond the Cosmic Physical. The human soul body is formed from substance on the higher levels of the mental plane. When the human has unfolded sufficiently its persona is able to express higher energies directly and the transformer roles of the soul body and the solar angel are no longer required. All substance cycles (is interchanged) just as on the physical plane. And the perception of Spirit recedes as the human perceives more - just native peoples progressively learned that Europeans were not gods.
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Post by jackjack on Mar 23, 2012 15:43:13 GMT 9.5
I will wait til I understand Theosophy a little better before I respond to your post.
However, I will say that yeah, in life, you do have change; but as I stated earlier, some things are immutable. Even the statement that there is a Universal law of periodicity denotes that this law is an immutable one; so therefore, if I were a theosophist, how could I say that everything has a tendency to change if there's an immutable law of change? Also, how can there be "an omnipresent, eternal, boundless, and immutable Reality" if everything always changes?
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Post by brandt on Mar 25, 2012 11:37:22 GMT 9.5
Jackjack. Are you a Mason? You have spoken of the Craft so I am just curious.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 27, 2012 9:50:10 GMT 9.5
Also, how can there be "an omnipresent, eternal, boundless, and immutable Reality" if everything always changes? Simplistic view... 'Reality' might be a bit like H2O ... it can be invisible, visible, cloud, steam, water, ice ... but it is still H2O. It can even look like a human being (70% ?).
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Post by LorrB on Mar 27, 2012 9:59:29 GMT 9.5
[ The soul already is immortal (does not die) but still it has a beginning and an end. The human, through an upright life can contribute spiritual substances to the soul body so that it becomes more refined. Eventually, however, the human individual is able express Spirit directly and there is no longer a need for the soul body and its substance is reabsorbed into the greater system. The second death? I have always thought of Eternal Life as realising or becoming cosciously aware that we ARE Spirit. Who would want the restrictions (eternally) of a human physical body?
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