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Post by brandt on Dec 13, 2011 13:05:09 GMT 9.5
Investigation should always continue and it should never be uneducated or infantile. Gross statements like "relationship with nature is the key to real knowledge" suggests that any other knowledge that doesn't meet that vague criteria is wrong and only explanations that fulfill an agenda could possibly be right.
You are correct though. Nature does show its mysteries to those that bother to actually learn how it works.
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Post by paul on Dec 13, 2011 13:20:27 GMT 9.5
.. suggests that any other knowledge that doesn't meet that vague criteria is wrong .. As a consideration of fads in science might indicate.
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Post by brandt on Dec 13, 2011 13:37:53 GMT 9.5
Fads in science? Which fads would you be referring to?
In any case that does not address the lack of any support for vague statements made about "relationship with nature is the key to real knowledge." You can attack the system of thought that has provided something real, the computer you are using, or you can address the lack of any progress that exists in the so-called "theories" that deserve to be passed without examination or evidence.
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Post by paul on Dec 13, 2011 14:21:50 GMT 9.5
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Post by brandt on Dec 14, 2011 6:21:34 GMT 9.5
Kuhn's book is on my shelf. It is a good read. It is an important book to understand History and Systems.
A fad is Hush Puppies. What you seem to think of as a fad is scientific paradigms. Those get dispensed with when the growth of evidence is contrary to the current paradigm. Then the paradigm changes. It isn't anything like the latest Fall styles.
"In any case that does not address the lack of any support for vague statements made about "relationship with nature is the key to real knowledge." You can attack the system of thought that has provided something real, the computer you are using, or you can address the lack of any progress that exists in the so-called "theories" that deserve to be passed without examination or evidence."
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Post by LorrB on Dec 15, 2011 7:18:15 GMT 9.5
.. pass without examination ??
The climate change debate, and more importantly its causes, throws the spotlight on that sort of problem. It seems most make up their minds one way or the other without reading one bit of evidence from either side of the argument. We just take on a journalist's or newspapers point of view.
Which brings us back to the topic of this thread.. are we too lazy or apathetic to take the trouble to exercise our free will? We are happy to let someone else tell us what to think.
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Post by paul on Dec 15, 2011 7:49:08 GMT 9.5
... We are happy to let someone else tell us what to think. We do worse than that. In the process of letting others do our thinking, we commonly give away some of our mental substance/body to those people and are no longer fully capable of independent thought.
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Post by brandt on Dec 15, 2011 8:30:49 GMT 9.5
Thinking is costly. It is far easier to give up and allow another to think for us, or worse as Paul suggested, to allow another unthinking person to rule.
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Post by paul on Dec 15, 2011 12:14:28 GMT 9.5
.. It is far easier to give up and allow another to think for us... So how do we know if this is the case? Take a vote?
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Post by LorrB on Dec 15, 2011 12:32:01 GMT 9.5
In a democracy the majority rules.... not an entirely satisfactory way to govern imo - however I can't come up with an alternative We can always choose to change the world just by talking to people ... therein lies a great power. If we care about something, talk about it to anyone who will listen.. you just never know what might come of it further down the track. The keyword there is probably 'care' - which is related to love - no greater power in the world we are told.
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Post by brandt on Dec 15, 2011 12:51:19 GMT 9.5
Luckily neither you nor I live in a direct democracy in which the majority of the people rule. Australia has, and I know that the United States has a system in which the majority cannot by vote take away the rights of the minority unless of course the people fall asleep and don't keep an eye on their government.
There are significant differences between Australia and the United States. Your head of government is also a legislator. Our's is not. Separation of powers doctrine that gets ignored all too often lately.
It is normal for scared people to huddle behind the strong man of the tribe to protect them from scary noises in the night. Their personal freedom is great, until they get scared.
More than just talking to people, and I think this is what you meant, but educating others in open discussion and sometimes debate. I may be naive but I think that people are naturally inclined, by evolution, to a certain state and view of economics and government. If the economics are allowed to happen in a natural manner then freedom follows. If not then we will revert to a default setting, which is tyranny.
I am in the process of designing a few experiments and doing a literature review of related subjects. Maybe something good will come of it.
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Post by paul on Dec 15, 2011 15:22:29 GMT 9.5
So how do we know if we are letting others think for us? Will they tell us?
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Post by brandt on Dec 15, 2011 16:19:33 GMT 9.5
If you aren't then you won't know or won't care. Most of human functions can be taken care of at the level of gross action. Beyond that, the source of most of our innovation, is purposeful thought and problem solving. By the way, "they" will never say that they are thinking for you. "They" will let you believe that you are thinking for yourself.
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Post by paul on Dec 15, 2011 16:36:39 GMT 9.5
... "They" will let you believe that you are thinking for yourself. I do not recall ever meeting anyone who did not claim to think for themselves and yet herding behaviour is seen everywhere. So do we know when our thoughts are really our own?
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Post by Henka on Dec 15, 2011 23:04:33 GMT 9.5
The keyword there is probably 'care' - which is related to love - no greater power in the world we are told. The caveat being Love under Will.
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Post by brandt on Dec 16, 2011 0:00:20 GMT 9.5
Critical self-examination and self-honesty.
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Post by stewartedwards on Dec 16, 2011 2:41:31 GMT 9.5
Critical self-examination and self-honesty. The Key to esoteric and personal growth.
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Post by Choice on Dec 16, 2011 5:40:09 GMT 9.5
Choosing not to choose (even as an act of omission) is still a choice.
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Post by JeanPaul Sartre on Dec 16, 2011 5:42:11 GMT 9.5
Man is condemned to be free. Condemned because he did not create himself, yet is nevertheless at liberty, and from the moment he is thrown into this world he is responsible for everything he does.
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Post by Stephen A Diamond on Dec 16, 2011 5:43:44 GMT 9.5
What makes us most human is not whether we are or are not biologically driven and determined beings; but, rather, how we respond to this relative truth. The conscious choices we make in related to the dynamic, psychobiological forces of the daimonic define our humanity.
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