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Post by paul on Nov 16, 2011 14:56:32 GMT 9.5
Free will is accepted as part of being human and is hardly to be questioned, but where did that idea come from?
On what authority we believe that humans have free will?
Alternatively, what experimental evidence is there for free will? For example, most humans cannot control their thoughts, what sort of free will can they have?
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Post by methuselah on Nov 16, 2011 15:46:27 GMT 9.5
I'd argue that human inability to control their thoughts is a pretty good argument for the existence of free will. Individual free will (and we may agree somewhat- it exists, but not really) is just an individualized form of Divine will, which has been colored and twisted by the act of Incarnation.
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Post by azaziel on Nov 16, 2011 17:07:57 GMT 9.5
Free will is accepted as part of being human and is hardly to be questioned, but where did that idea come from? On what authority we believe that humans have free will? Alternatively, what experimental evidence is there for free will? For example, most humans cannot control their thoughts, what sort of free will can they have? Your position seems strange, considering in " MIND cONTROL" you seem to think we have none, or are you always this elastic
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Post by paul on Nov 16, 2011 17:40:06 GMT 9.5
It may be that some humans manifest more free will than others. Free will may have to be worked on.
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Post by paul on Nov 16, 2011 17:43:11 GMT 9.5
..... human inability to control their thoughts is a pretty good argument for the existence of free will. Individual free will ..... is just an individualized form of Divine will.... Does that mean that: - humans should never control their thoughts? - the only influence on human thoughts is divine? A few counter-examples come to mind
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Post by LorrB on Nov 17, 2011 8:03:33 GMT 9.5
For example, most humans cannot control their thoughts, what sort of free will can they have? Choice. Even if caught between a rock and a hard place, we can still choose which to dash ourselves against
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Post by azaziel on Nov 17, 2011 8:27:50 GMT 9.5
For example, most humans cannot control their thoughts, what sort of free will can they have? Choice. Even if caught between a rock and a hard place, we can still choose which to dash ourselves against Excellent, we have free will and free thought, and we can control that thought and free will
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Post by paul on Nov 17, 2011 8:42:48 GMT 9.5
Most people do not claim to control their thoughts. Whence do those thoughts come?
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Post by LorrB on Nov 17, 2011 9:39:21 GMT 9.5
Choice. Even if caught between a rock and a hard place, we can still choose which to dash ourselves against Excellent, we have free will and free thought, and we can control that thought and free will That was just an example of free will. I'm with Paul re free thought. The topic of legalising Gay Marriage tests 'the values' of lots of people. Their position on this issue (the way they think) is for the most part probably decided by the thoughts of those involved in their upbringing ?
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Post by Henka on Nov 17, 2011 10:17:27 GMT 9.5
Most people do not claim to control their thoughts. Where is your evidence for this assertion?
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Post by Henka on Nov 17, 2011 10:18:55 GMT 9.5
..... human inability to control their thoughts is a pretty good argument for the existence of free will. Individual free will ..... is just an individualized form of Divine will.... Does that mean that: - humans should never control their thoughts? - the only influence on human thoughts is divine? A few counter-examples come to mind No, that is not what that means.
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Post by paul on Nov 17, 2011 10:27:30 GMT 9.5
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Post by Henka on Nov 17, 2011 11:00:11 GMT 9.5
A Google search for Aliens produces 148,000,000 hits. That does not prove their existence.
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Post by LorrB on Nov 17, 2011 11:32:11 GMT 9.5
A Google search for Aliens produces 148,000,000 hits. That does not prove their existence. ... where there is smoke there is fire ;D
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Post by paul on Nov 17, 2011 12:08:51 GMT 9.5
Most people do not claim to control their thoughts. Whence do those thoughts come? Any thoughts on where the unbidden thoughts come from?
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Post by Henka on Nov 17, 2011 13:50:44 GMT 9.5
Most people do not claim to control their thoughts. Whence do those thoughts come? Any thoughts on where the unbidden thoughts come from? From our own subconscious.
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Post by LorrB on Nov 17, 2011 15:38:09 GMT 9.5
And where do the thoughts from our subconscious come from, if we did not consciously think of them first?
It is taught in some traditions that if we wish to approach higher powers we first need to gain the attention of our subconscious. In lodge that might be seen as needing to use the deacons to convey messages and commands.
Another thought is re the Trinity. Three in One. As above, so below ... are we three in one also. The triplicities which occur in Freemasons are numerous.
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Post by Henka on Nov 17, 2011 16:03:09 GMT 9.5
And where do the thoughts from our subconscious come from, if we did not consciously think of them first? The brain is a pattern recognition computer, basically. We constantly take in input from around us through our senses, which are stored at the unconscious level. This input sits there until the mind works out a pattern, which then come out as a thought - hence Paul's "random thoughts out of nowhere."
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Post by paul on Nov 17, 2011 17:21:34 GMT 9.5
Is subconscious a thing, an intelligence, is it all those (lower?) processes/intelligences of which we are not conscious.
If the last, what do we know about those processes/intelligences?
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Post by Henka on Nov 17, 2011 23:40:20 GMT 9.5
Is subconscious a thing, an intelligence, is it all those (lower?) processes/intelligences of which we are not conscious. If the last, what do we know about those processes/intelligences? Processes, yes. If by "intelligences" you mean "outside intelligences," no. They are part of our physical make up. It is the "I," simply an underlying program, so to speak. Otherwise, we would have to "think" to perform simple bodily functions such as breathing and digesting.
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