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Post by paul on Jul 23, 2012 8:36:13 GMT 9.5
>according to masonic tradition, they would be all the same
There are various lights in Masonry and they are distinguished by quality and by origin.
>Jesus IS the Logos--the actual Word of God!
Did the Word of God exist more than 2000 years ago? What form might it have taken?
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Post by jackjack on Jul 23, 2012 14:33:08 GMT 9.5
>according to masonic tradition, they would be all the same There are various lights in Masonry and they are distinguished by quality and by origin. Can you prove that from the writings of the masonic fathers? www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KSx6nhUJvo&feature=related
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Post by paul on Jul 23, 2012 14:38:43 GMT 9.5
>Can you prove that from the writings of the masonic fathers?
That's pretty easy. The columns of the Master and the Wardens usually have lights on the top. They are called Wisdom, Strength, Beauty.
A little study will find several more lights in the furnishings and ritual.
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Post by paul on Jul 23, 2012 14:44:22 GMT 9.5
I think you might find that the concept of the Trinity is much earlier than Christianity e.g. Osiris, Isis and Horus. Horus was known as the Lord of Life. And in the Hindu tradition, it is not the Word of God but the Song of Creation. One of the great criticisms of Christianity arose after the translation of Egyptian and Sumerian texts - so much of the religious systems are close to identical. St Augustine knew of this problem long ago and resolved it by saying that the Devil anticipated Christianity and copied it in advance. A good answer that does not require evidence!
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Post by jackjack on Jul 23, 2012 15:24:23 GMT 9.5
While the concept of the trinity may be common in almost every major religion in the world, the function in which those deities serve are vastly different from the ways in which the Christian trinity serve.
You know this better then I do, Paul, which is why you introduced a sense object.
The Bible has an awful lot to say about placing stumbling blocks in people's path; one purpose of these stumbling blocks is to lead people off in the wrong direction and into idolatry--and this is precisely what you're doing here.
It's not good, it's not right, and it most certainly isn't holy.
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Post by LorrB on Jul 23, 2012 20:03:33 GMT 9.5
Judge not and ye shall not be judged. There are many paths JJ ... Please allow others the freedom to make their own choices. Doesn't the Bible say God gave His children Free Will? Why would you want to take that gift away from them?
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Post by paul on Jul 23, 2012 20:20:42 GMT 9.5
>to lead people off in the wrong direction and into idolatry--and this is precisely what you're doing here.
I think you will find there are no posts from me advocating worship of any entity or even belief in any entity.
You may find that I repeatedly suggest experiment rather than belief.
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Post by jackjack on Jul 24, 2012 2:51:52 GMT 9.5
Judge not and ye shall not be judged. There are many paths JJ ... Please allow others the freedom to make their own choices. Doesn't the Bible say God gave His children Free Will? Why would you want to take that gift away from them? If Christianity is no different then the mystery religions: 1. Why does Jesus say "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me"? 2. Why does Jesus say "“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death"? 3. Why does Jesus declare “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"? 4. Why does Paul say "Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ"? 5. Why does he go on to say "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross"? 6. Finally, why does the Bible say "You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world"? People's free choice isn't what I'm complaining about; I'm complaining about Paul's inference that Christianity and the other religions are pretty much the same.
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Post by paul on Jul 24, 2012 9:12:22 GMT 9.5
>Why does Jesus declare “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"? Unfortunately such quotations are from documents jealously guarded for 1000 years by the Roman church. I would be happier with quotes from the Dead Sea Scrolls. They predate Christian editors although were subject to Jewish editors. >I'm complaining about Paul's inference that Christianity and the other religions are pretty much the same. Have you read The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors? www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/The outer form of Christianity is easily mapped on to previous religions, but this is not the same as saying that spiritual flow behind the religions is the same. For myself I rather like the concept of The Cosmic Christ that addresses the Christ energies beyond the solar system. This concept was introduced to the West, as far as I can tell, by Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit theologian. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_ChardinThe Cosmic Christ of course does not rely on localised or human religious traditions or practices, but works as a leaven across the planets.
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Post by LorrB on Jul 24, 2012 9:13:02 GMT 9.5
JJ - God did not write the Bible, people did. People tend to impose their own personalities or understandings on events or stories, this we can see every day in our newspapers. This is a little something on the Light side .... Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
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Post by LorrB on Jul 24, 2012 9:16:39 GMT 9.5
...ooops Paul and I cross posted.
Pauls post is much more important than my little guffaw ...
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Post by jackjack on Jul 25, 2012 5:11:43 GMT 9.5
I wonder in sheer amazement sometimes how easy it is for some people to merely discount the divinity of Christ by merely pointing to other heroes and people in history and say, "B-b-but...they said the same thing and they're MUCH OLDER then Jesus--therefore, Jesus must have copied them or the disciples must've read the mystery schools, the Gitas, and did a psyched up version of them and called it "The Evangel.'"
You know, lots of people claim to be a somebody--does that mean that they all are somebody special? Or would it require testing first in order to confirm whether or not somebody actually was what they were claiming to be? It would require special testing; to be quite frank, I'm a bit surprised at how easily you, Paul, would take something as frivolous as the world's sixteen messiah's and actually use it to challenge the notion of the deity of Christ. Even more shocking is the fact that you are a 32nd degree mason; for from the first degree, you've been taught to carefully scrutinize everything you read and not just believe it, from the books in the library down to the masonic lectures.
I will only give two examples of why I think "the world's sixteen Christ's" is all washed up; I'll speak on two subjects that I have some familiarity with and that is Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. In regards to Krishna, the teaching is that Krishna is NOT God but rather AN AVATAR OF BRAHMA! It would be more fitting and proper to call Brahma the god of Hinduism then it would be to call Krishna god; in fact, there are several million avatars of brahma worshipped under different forms and names in the nation of India--if you were to go so far as to call Krishna a god, why not include all the others as well since they are avatars of brahma too? Also, Brahma isn't a monothestic idea of God anyone; it is the essence of everything if I remember or the eternal nothingness. In regards to Zoroastrianism, nowhere have I read of Zoroaster claiming to be the son of a demiurgic god or being God. Yes, I have heard of him claiming and being considered a prophet/seer/magician; but never as God.
Maybe you have some quotes from the ancient Zoroastrian texts that say otherwise. But to my knowledge, there are none that call Zoroaster God.
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Post by jackjack on Jul 25, 2012 5:17:20 GMT 9.5
Quotations from the Bible aren't closely guarded by Rome; in fact, I'm quite sure you can find a copy of the Received Text on the internet somewhere.
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Post by jackjack on Jul 25, 2012 5:19:31 GMT 9.5
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Post by jackjack on Jul 25, 2012 5:23:07 GMT 9.5
Looks like some people need more light... Here ya go...
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Post by LorrB on Jul 25, 2012 8:17:30 GMT 9.5
You know, lots of people claim to be a somebody--does that mean that they all are somebody special? Yes! WE are all children of God. WE are brothers and sisters. WE need to care for each other, share our toys Did you know that it is easier to love others when we learn to love our selves? We are all works in progress ...
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Post by LorrB on Jul 25, 2012 8:53:31 GMT 9.5
Did you know that Jesus was just Jesus (of Nazareth) until he was 30. At 30 he was baptised in the River Jordan, the Holy Spirit descendeth and he began his ministry to the people, thereafter was referred to as Jesus, the Christ. Some have made a distinction between Jesus and "the Christ." saying that "Christhood" is the goal which every human should strive for. Or as Jesus said, The person that has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you truly believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don't come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done. I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done. Maybe Jesus was intimating that "I" and Father are ONE. God is omnipresent after all. We just have to put aside with our personal desires and needs and concentrate on those of the Father ??
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Post by paul on Jul 25, 2012 9:03:07 GMT 9.5
.... I'm a bit surprised at how easily you, Paul, would ....actually use it to challenge the notion of the deity of Christ. I dare say you understand that Christ means "anointed" and that in the New Testament Jesus was anointed - by a human (a woman). So now I wonder if there is a reason for the expression Jesus the Christ as if the Christ is a role separate from the human identity And you will have also noted that 30 pieces of silver were paid to identify Jesus who had been teaching daily in the temple for 3 years. How could his identity not been known to the temple police? Unless..... That is shocking to me also. Why did you have to be the one to break the news to me? Is it of any use to point out that the book in question is not about Christs (anointed) or about Messiahs (anointed with the fat of the messeh) but about saviours? Saviours can be crucified without being anointed.
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Post by paul on Jul 25, 2012 9:05:48 GMT 9.5
Quotations from the Bible aren't closely guarded by Rome; in fact, I'm quite sure you can find a copy of the Received Text on the internet somewhere. I was being polite. As you will recall the archives of the Vatican were protected for centuries on pain of death for unauthorised entry Only authorised versions of the scriptures were published If you wish an example of the editorial regime consider The Donation of Constantine. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine
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Post by jackjack on Jul 25, 2012 14:18:21 GMT 9.5
You know Paul, different people sacrificed their lives copying the Bible into what we have today. First it was translated into German, then into English. They had to have gotten the text from somewhere; if I recall, Wycliff was the one who had access to those manuscripts and translated them. so did John Huss. Eventually we ended up with the KJV from the Received Text, a portion of which came from those manuscripts that had at one time been closely guarded by Rome.
So there's no real point in debating that point; and more then likely, this is just another sense object. As for that other stuff about saviours and Messiah, need I point out that Christ was anointed with the power from the Holy Spirit which is why He was authorized to go around healing people and working miracles?
Therefore, he is in no way comparable to those other folks.
Now, in regards to Christ being anointed by a woman; to my knowledge, nowhere in the scriptures do you find that Christ was anointed by a woman. Now, maybe the Gnostic gospels say so but not the scriptures.
Got a Bible verse you'd like to share that says Jesus was anointed with power and might by a woman?
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