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Post by paul on Aug 28, 2011 14:13:04 GMT 9.5
Many thousands of humans have reported abductions they connect with their observation or dreams of ufos. Many of them report the events in terms of aliens (or at least non-humans), while a small proportion report human involvement.
Many find the experiences life-changing - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.
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Post by tamrin on Aug 28, 2011 16:01:01 GMT 9.5
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Post by tamrin on Aug 28, 2011 16:06:15 GMT 9.5
For a humorous instance of applied reason see: Lawrence Leung's Unbelievable UFO | Episode 3 - Part 1 (of 2) Lawrence Leung's Unbelievable UFO | Episode 3 - Part 2 (of 2)
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Post by stewartedwards on Aug 29, 2011 6:10:45 GMT 9.5
My dad claims alien abduction.... Quite common, even by those in good jobs, policemen, etc. In america some have even repeatedly passed polygraph tests to this effect (but hey ho the machines could be wrong - unless we are trying to convict when the proof is conclusive ;D) CWhite, abductions are said to run down the feminine side of a family, but this isnt always the case, and if you ask your granny if she is still around you may find a family history of it through the generations. Sometimes people have been known to be abducted with multiple reliable witnesses, including global politicians (ok perhaps not so reliable ) and even in some cases in the middle of city parks in the snow where the abductees return with a half face of sunburn. Globally there are buckfulls of reliable witness personal experience and witness testimony. Good books to read include "UFOs by Leslie Keen (though it is about ufos generally not abductions but it is up to date and pause for thought), "Witnessed" by Budd Hopkins, "Fire in the Sky" by Travis Walton, or even the ufo conference video/transcript of Nick Pope ex mod ufo case officer when he brought an abductee to a conference. And if you can get hold of it the MIT Abduction conference transcript is worth a read.
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Post by cwhite on Aug 29, 2011 10:39:51 GMT 9.5
My dad claimed alien abduction. He is not a kook. He is actually kind of a prude. A military man who spent 8 years in the Army core of engineers, from a long line of military men.
In any case, it was the late 80's. 11:00 pm, my dad went out to have a cigarette and gaze at the stars. Half way through his cigarette he seen a star move down a couple inches. The instant it stopped moving down, it made a quick right at a 90 degree angle for a couple more inches and stopped. He was kinda amused so he started flicking his bic lighter at it. Just a moment after he stopped flicking, a huge light was instantly over top of him. He was paralyzed (not involuntarily, but in awe). He said it didn't make a sound. It was only over him for a minute and then shot back off into the distance. He went in to tell my mom but she had already went to bed, 2 hours had passed! To my dad, it only seemed like 10 minutes. My mom didn't believe him, naturally. A week later she found a strange lump in his leg, he claims that its a souvenir from his visit.
Its the only abduction in my family that I'm aware of.
However, there is something special about the feminine side of my family, apart from ufos.....
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Post by tamrin on Aug 29, 2011 11:15:13 GMT 9.5
My dad claims alien abduction.... Quite common, even by those in good jobs, policemen, etc.Stewart, elsewhere we have been down this path before. You cited your best evidence, all of which was found wanting, and in the end you said words to the effect that it was important for you to believe because it gave meaning to your life. I left it at that.
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Post by paul on Aug 29, 2011 12:22:38 GMT 9.5
.... You cited your best evidence, all of which was found wanting,.... "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." John 20:25 Everyone needs to be an eye witness for unapproved events
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Post by paul on Aug 29, 2011 14:04:16 GMT 9.5
''Unidentified flying objects began to appear in the sky above the city of Elista, the capital of the Kalmykia Republic (Southern Russia), in December of the outgoing year. The former head of the republic once claimed that he had personally met and communicated with extraterrestrial beings clad in yellow spacesuits. The official urged everyone not to be ashamed of speaking about the aliens in public. In December of 2010, hundreds of Elista residents could see UFOs appearing in the sky above their heads every ten days of the month, the Nezavisimaya Gazeta wrote. The most recent sighting took place on December 22: eyewitnesses said they saw two concentric circles in the sky from 3 to 7 p.m. local time. The inner circle was rotating clockwise, and the outer one was rotating anticlockwise. Others could see a triangle object with beams of light coming from it." english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries/29-12-2010/116379-aliens-0/Those familiar with electrogravitics will recognise the description " inner circle was rotating clockwise, and the outer one was rotating anticlockwise" jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/files/ElectrograviticsElectrokineticsValone.pdfElectrogravitics stems from the work of Heaviside and of course TT Brown en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Townsend_Brown
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Post by stewartedwards on Aug 29, 2011 17:30:55 GMT 9.5
Quite common, even by those in good jobs, policemen, etc. Stewart, elsewhere we have been down this path before. You cited your best evidence, all of which was found wanting, and in the end you said words to the effect that it was important for you to believe because it gave meaning to your life. I left it at that. Wow Tamrin I could almost feel the cutting energy there It is not my evidince. It the sworn testimony of reliable witnesses, assuming for example you consider the likes of policemen to be a reliable witness, backed up by genuinely independent experts eg in lie detection. Now can you please quote where I have ever said specificly that believing in abductions gives meaning to my life. (I suspect you are muddling this with a belief that the human race is not the most intelligent species in the universe), but I am happy for you to quote me and to prove me wrong, but please do so in context. I am genuinely intrigued at me ever saying that I need to believe in abductions to give meaning to my life.
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Post by tamrin on Aug 29, 2011 20:57:53 GMT 9.5
Now can you please quote where I have ever said specificly that believing in abductions gives meaning to my life. (I suspect you are muddling this with a belief that the human race is not the most intelligent species in the universe), but I am happy for you to quote me and to prove me wrong, but please do so in context. I am genuinely intrigued at me ever saying that I need to believe in abductions to give meaning to my life. I did say "words to the effect," as I do not recall exactly what you said. It was a few years ago, I think on the Masonic Forum of Light (where you are no longer a member, so I can not simply use the search function to isolate your posts). Even so my recollection of our exchange is fairly clear and I distinctly recall dropping the subject (not specifically abductions but UFOs in general) out of regard for your feelings. We can now go back to square one with you providing your best knock-down, specific example as proof.
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Post by stewartedwards on Aug 29, 2011 21:21:55 GMT 9.5
Tamrin, please quote me or apologise, I have no issue with the ufo bit, but the abduction bit I do. If you are going to attempt to character assassinate me back up your claims.
Even on this thread I have shown you where to look for the evidince you are blind to. It is not that difficult to find the likes of policemen who collate this information, write about it and experience it. I once asked you before what proof you would accept I mean if the testimony of the likes of the police doesnt satisfy you, or experts in lie detection trying several times to prove abductees liars and failing each time what will?
Or are every single one of these policemen, retired generals, ex government defense staff, lie detector expects as used by the USA courts, etc all liars or are they all mistaken? Do you know better than such mass of critical expert witnesses globally? Tamrin try talking to some of them directly, they are not hard to find and are normally approachable.
Some have even been known to tour down your neck of the woods so if you are patient you could get the chance to have a face to face with them.
Given that as a freemason you are instructed to investigate the hidden mysteries I am gobsmacked that you appear to have so much difficulty in accepting the witness testimony of the likes of serving and retired police officers, military officers and government officials. The contact details of some of them are easily accessible from google, some will get back to you quickly.
Or have you done all of this and concluded that each and every single one of these police officers, pilots, government officials, scientists, engineers etc are all liars or nuts? (clearly many more talk about ufo experiences, working on craft, attempting to shoot them down etc than about abductions)
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Post by Henka on Aug 30, 2011 2:05:29 GMT 9.5
Tamrin, please quote me or apologise, I have no issue with the ufo bit, but the abduction bit I do. If you are going to attempt to character assassinate me back up your claims. Even on this thread I have shown you where to look for the evidince you are blind to. It is not that difficult to find the likes of policemen who collate this information, write about it and experience it. I once asked you before what proof you would accept I mean if the testimony of the likes of the police doesnt satisfy you, or experts in lie detection trying several times to prove abductees liars and failing each time what will? Or are every single one of these policemen, retired generals, ex government defense staff, lie detector expects as used by the USA courts, etc all liars or are they all mistaken? Do you know better than such mass of critical expert witnesses globally? Tamrin try talking to some of them directly, they are not hard to find and are normally approachable. Some have even been known to tour down your neck of the woods so if you are patient you could get the chance to have a face to face with them. Given that as a freemason you are instructed to investigate the hidden mysteries I am gobsmacked that you appear to have so much difficulty in accepting the witness testimony of the likes of serving and retired police officers, military officers and government officials. The contact details of some of them are easily accessible from google, some will get back to you quickly. Or have you done all of this and concluded that each and every single one of these police officers, pilots, government officials, scientists, engineers etc are all liars or nuts? (clearly many more talk about ufo experiences, working on craft, attempting to shoot them down etc than about abductions) Polygraph tests are not admissible as evidence in US courts because they are unreliable. There are techniques to beat them. As to UFOs, they could well be unidentified military craft, which is what I think most of them are. Tamrin isn't trying to "character assasinate" you.
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Post by stewartedwards on Aug 30, 2011 4:06:10 GMT 9.5
Polygraph tests are not admissible as evidence in US courts because they are unreliable. According to many sources they are Henka including thepolygraphexaminer.com :- I agree Henka. From your amendment of this line I assume that you no longer consider me to be "whinging" Henka?
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Post by paul on Aug 30, 2011 5:52:57 GMT 9.5
"The landmark 1989 Cortile case, investigated by researcher Budd Hopkins, is a prime example of multiple eyewitness abduction. It was around 3:00 a.m. on the morning of November 30 when Linda Cortile was abducted from her twelfth story New York City apartment window, while scores of eyewitnesses watched in horror from the street and nearby Brooklyn Bridge. Most of the witnesses were motorists passing through the area, when their automobiles stalled and came to a halt in the middle of the street and on the bridge. Outside their vehicles, the witnesses looked up to see Linda and three smaller figures as they floated up into a beam of blue light, emanating from the underside of a large orange glowing object. The onlookers continued to watch as the object flew over the bridge and out of sight (Hopkins 152)." Hopkins, Budd. Witnessed: The True Story of the Brooklyn Bridge Abductions. New York: Pocket Books, 1996 www.fortunecity.com/roswell/fate/324/abduction.htm
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Post by paul on Aug 30, 2011 5:59:15 GMT 9.5
Meanwhile let us conduct ourselves with that peace and harmony that should at all times characterize a Freemason.
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Post by tamrin on Aug 30, 2011 6:01:45 GMT 9.5
Tamrin, please quote me or apologise, I have no issue with the ufo bit, but the abduction bit I do. If you are going to attempt to character assassinate me back up your claims. Character assassinate!!!! I have always held back with respect to yourself. Now, if you have no issue with the UFO bit, please explain how what I take to be a subset of that mythosphere stands alone (to me, its a bit like saying that the evidence for extraterrestrial aliens visiting is weak but that the evidence for Martians living among us is solid)? I do unreservedly apologise if I have committed a category error here. As for your evidence. You have not been specific. You mention policemen: Please state a specific case, give a name, and I'll check it out. BTW, I'm not impressed by polygraphs which, even if genuine and reliable, would simply show that the people believe what they say (proof would require specific corroboration in specific cases).
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Post by paul on Aug 30, 2011 6:13:25 GMT 9.5
Let me suggest that it is not for Stewart to prove that Tamrin should believe Stewart's father.
Tamrin is quite capable of reviewing the voluminous abduction accounts for himself. Reply 13 is a good point to start.
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Post by tamrin on Aug 30, 2011 6:18:53 GMT 9.5
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Post by paul on Aug 30, 2011 6:21:25 GMT 9.5
Each of us may choose their own beliefs. Let us be tolerant of others' freedom.
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Post by tamrin on Aug 30, 2011 6:26:26 GMT 9.5
Let me suggest that it is not for Stewart to prove that Tamrin should believe Stewart's father.
Tamrin is quite capable of reviewing the voluminous abduction accounts for himself. Google? Extraordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence (Carl Sagan). The burden of proof in such cases rests with the persons making the claims. I could debunk any number of cases but, if they are not the ones a particular believer thinks are relevant, then it is a futile exercise.
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