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Post by LorrB on Feb 23, 2012 7:46:47 GMT 9.5
Believe me or not, call it rubbish if you like, I will not be offended. I have travelled a long road to get where I am, knocks and bruises are par for the course, every one of them has been absolutely worth it.
Does it really matter when the genuine secrets were lost?
Does it really matter that we even believe there is a secret or secrets.
I think what really matters is that each and every Freemasonry tries to live what they learn.. then maybe the secret/s will reveal themselves. The veil of the temple will be torn from top to bottom.[/b]
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Post by LorrB on Feb 23, 2012 7:54:43 GMT 9.5
Further... This "Golden Age" of Medieval Judaism peaked in Arab occupied Spain and contributed some of the most profound Jewish mystical philosophers since the period of the Prophets in the Old Testament. Moses ben Maimon, the preeminent commentator on classical Jewish writings, Solomon ben-Gabirol, and Moses of Cordoba, the author, or more likely editor of the Sepher Zohar come from this period. The Zohar, or Book of Illumination, along with the Sepher Yetzirah (Book of Formation), forms the basis for all kabbalistic speculation, meditation, and ritual. Its commentaries on Biblical lore are a never ending storehouse of wisdom for students of Western mysticism. It is because of these activities in Spain, in the region of Catalonia in particular, and Provencal in Southern France, that Kabbalah grew into one of the most powerful and influential mystical philosophies in Western history.
This is also important to mystical students because it is from Arab Spain that the West gets much of its knowledge of Alchemy, and Ritual Magic, the sisters of Kabbalah. Together, these three schools formed the basis for Hermetic philosophy and practices as mentioned in the early Rosicrucian manifestoes: the Fama Fraternitatis, the Confessio Fraternitatis, and The Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreuz. For many students of mysticism, the pilgrimage to these schools was as great and as dangerous as their forbearers had made to the temples of Egypt and Persia. Raymond Lull, Arnold of Villanova, and the famed French mystic, alchemist, and Rosicrucian Nicolas Flamel, bookseller turned patron of cathedrals, all received their initiations into the Hermetic sciences, of which Kabbalah is a part, in Spain and brought it to the rest of Europe. hermetic.com/stavish/essays/kabbalah-hermetic.html
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Post by paul on Feb 23, 2012 8:57:47 GMT 9.5
Knowing that might help identify the nature of the genuine secrets.
The symbolism of lost secrets or a lost word suggests to brethren that there is a higher state of Masonry to which we might aspire.
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Post by LorrB on Feb 23, 2012 10:05:20 GMT 9.5
Which is better... having the veil torn from top to bottom or tearing the veil from bottom to top?
I don't know that answer to that... guess the main thing is that the veil is removed some time or t'other by one means or another.
The story or the Prodigal Son just sprang to mind... when the son finally decided to return home the Father set out on the road to meet him.
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Post by jackjack on Mar 9, 2012 6:53:19 GMT 9.5
This may come as a surprise but the secrets were never lost!
Saying that something is lost is a very clever way of holding someone's attention and it peaks their curiosity and makes them (no, drives them at times) to discover the thing that it is claimed was lost. Lest you think this is a sense object, I remind you of the fact that more then once the Masonic fathers declared that the stories are but allegories and aren't really "real" or "historical" at all! Rather they are tools that are used to communicate a message to the devotee/member.
Yes; and the masonic fathers also reluctantly admitted that Freemasonry wasn't any older then the 1700's! Having studied two of those fathers, I discovered that there were a group of men who were dedicated to sifting through old manuscripts, finding ancient esoterica, and then tried to find a way to communicate the esoterica through their writings. Wealthy rulers and kings helped them out as well and as a result, over a little time, they created a new system that they called "Freemasonry."
All the claims that Freemasonry dates back to the Egyptians is a ruse; for the founders of Freemasonry merely observed the reliefs of some of the statues, decided that certain things the characters in the reliefs were doing would be a sign/token to be used for a certain degree, and then told their followers that the picture was "proof" that Freemasonry went back thousands of years.
If you read what the fathers of Freemasonry said, you'd see the same thing. They reluctantly admit that it isn't any older then the 1700's, that Freemasonry isn't as old as some people were saying it was, and that they had a hand in CREATING the system of Freemasonry during the mid-1700's.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 9, 2012 7:01:51 GMT 9.5
From memory the first United Grand Lodge of England was formed with four existing lodges inthe 1700's.
The earliest recorded 'making' of a Freemason in England is that of Elias Ashmole in 1646.
Note we are just talking about England here not Europe.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 9, 2012 7:03:25 GMT 9.5
... and who made Elias Ashmole a Freemason?
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Post by LorrB on Mar 9, 2012 7:18:33 GMT 9.5
Elias Ashmole was a keen student of Astrology and Alchemy, among other things. Isaac Newton was also a practicing Alchemist, among other things Alchemists were put to death in those days if they were caught. Modern Freemasonry talks about changing stones and the need to be cautious. The Zodiac is very prominent in some areas of Freemasonry, albeit they are referred to as the twelve tribes. It might prove beneficial it we spend a little time learning more Alchemy and Alchemists. And no, the big secret is NOT on how to turn lead into gold... well not the physical variety anyway. freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/EliasAshmole.html
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Post by Henka on Mar 9, 2012 10:36:57 GMT 9.5
... and who made Elias Ashmole a Freemason? The Scots.
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Post by Henka on Mar 9, 2012 10:39:16 GMT 9.5
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Post by LorrB on Mar 9, 2012 11:40:06 GMT 9.5
Good link henka, thanks.
JJ... one of Churton's books mentioned in the link might interest you on the origins of Freemasonry.. you might find the conversation at the festive boards perks up a little with this sort of information.
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Post by jackjack on Mar 9, 2012 17:18:43 GMT 9.5
Thanks; I will definitely look into it.
Oh; and in regards to Ashmole's quote...
If memory serves, stone masons at that time served an apprenticeship with a teacher of sorts (called a master mason who was someone really good at stone masonry); after they became a journeyman, they could travel with their master to different places and work on various projects as well as open up their own place of business. After they became a master, they became "free" and could travel anywhere and do pretty much what they pleased and performed faithful service to the guild that they were a part of (hence the reference to being a free mason, which is pretty much a stone worker who is no longer under a master).
And in speaking of lodges; lodges were places where stone masons met to discuss various projects and stuff. Some stone masons however, had a mystical slant to their architecture and would communicate their secrets through their architecture or whatever they could get their hands on. When it became popular (and it did), I suppose someone decided to make it more universal so they diligently studied ancient esoterica and started the society of Freemasonry as we know it today.
As an aside, you'll find that in several of the manuscripts many masons point to as proof that the society of Freemasonry existed in the 1600's...well, all those references to masons and masonry are really only referring to stone masons in general or those certain masons who had a mystical interpretation to their craftsmanship; another rather interesting document that was earlier then these is one called "The Rosicrucian Manifestos"; this document dates back to 1614-1615 and calls for a worldwide spiritual and cultural reformation across the continent of Europe.
I'm still looking into the matter further as I've been very busy these last few days; hopefully though, I will find something interesting and let you know my findings.
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Post by paul on Mar 9, 2012 19:18:03 GMT 9.5
That is pretty much the orthodox account. Not everyone is satisfied by that. For example, do parts of Masonic ritual come from previous groups of which stone masons were most likely ignorant?
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Post by jackjack on Mar 9, 2012 22:30:40 GMT 9.5
While I can't give you every detail of where each part of masonic ritual came from (believe me, if I could, I would try), but a good place to start is with "the books". Your local masonic library is full of them as well as your local masonic magazine. You should purchase (or if possible read on-line) Kittos' Biblical Cyclopedia and The Two Babylons. Now, you might find it strange that I refer you to The Two Babylons but there's a reason why; the reason is not only b/c the author was a mason but also b/c much of the material he uses to make his case is taught at the lodge and is more then likely available at your local masonic library. Of course, you could always read the book on-line--and here is one of the pictures you'll find; in one of the ancient mysteries of Babylon, the candidate knelt, one foot he used to support himself and the other one on the ground--he raises both hands to the man in front of him; one of the priests sitting nearby is lifting up a cup (possibly an oblation offering of some kind).
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Post by paul on Mar 22, 2012 13:21:02 GMT 9.5
Aspects of Masonic ritual can be variously derived from Egypt, Sumer, and India with particular reference to Mithraic symbolism.
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Post by paul on Mar 22, 2012 13:25:29 GMT 9.5
Albert Pike writing in the 1870s tells us: "As Grand Master of all Symbolic Lodges, it is your especial duty to aid in restoring Masonry to its primitive purity. You have become an instructor. ... Less than two hundred years ago, its organization was simple, and altogether moral, its emblems, allegories, and ceremonies easy to be understood, and their purpose and object readily to be seen. .. Innovators and inventors overturned that primitive simplicity. Ignorance engaged in the work of making Degrees, and trifles and gewgaws and pretended mysteries, absurd or hideous, usurped the place of Masonic Truth. ….. The rituals even of the respectable Degrees, copied and mutilated by ignorant men, became nonsensical and trivial; and the words so corrupted that it has hitherto been found impossible to recover many of them at all." tracingboard.com/the-lost-fellow-craft/#more-92Pike thereby suggests that in the early 18th century the secrets were progressively lost. This of course is contrary to the ritual account whereby the secrets were lost so long ago that there is little hope of deliberate recovery. If the secrets have been lost recently are there existing Grand Lodges that might be implicated?
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Post by brandt on Mar 22, 2012 13:44:03 GMT 9.5
Aspects of Masonic ritual can be variously derived from Egypt, Sumer, and India with particular reference to Mithraic symbolism. Citation please?
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Post by paul on Mar 22, 2012 14:42:29 GMT 9.5
Here are some examples to get you started:
- Egypt gives the Widow and the Lord of Life - Sumer the triple grip and the triple name - India gives us the veils - Mithras gives us the wardens columns: the lights of Cautes and Cautopates, and the canopy of stars
You can find lots more if you look.
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Post by brandt on Mar 22, 2012 14:52:26 GMT 9.5
Don't assume that I haven't. I have seen a lot where people say this is what it is without giving anything that even approaches evidence. Is there any chance that some imaginative folks just used existing material to make a good story?
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Post by paul on Mar 22, 2012 14:56:24 GMT 9.5
Don't assume that I haven't. .. Perhaps you would like to share some of your findings. The more data we have the better our chances of forming robust theories.
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