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Post by acrogers on Sept 20, 2011 16:24:20 GMT 9.5
Surely some of the correspondents must have read Laurence Gardner's The Shadow of Solomon? That I think gives as good an account of any as to how genuine secrets might have been lost.
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Post by LorrB on Sept 21, 2011 9:33:10 GMT 9.5
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Post by chingus on Nov 18, 2011 18:57:23 GMT 9.5
A good answer - but that would suggest that either: - the holders of the genuine secrets were not smart/prescient enough to escape the flood (what value the secrets?), or - the holders of secrets deliberately refrained from passing them on (what hope then for recovery?). That would also suggest that Masonry stretches back before the Deluge(s). Various Big Flood events- any of which could have been THE deluge-- occurred millennia ago. That'd be one hell of a lineage if it could be proven.
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2011 19:29:16 GMT 9.5
So when were the genuine secrets lost?
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Post by chingus on Nov 18, 2011 19:39:27 GMT 9.5
If we could identify & define the genuine secrets first-- properly so, within correct historical and cultural contexts-- then perhaps we could establish a timeline. Otherwise you're just asking when something unknown and undefinable was lost. May as well speculate over the colour of The Celestial Teapot, and whether it's made of porcelain or clay.
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2011 19:52:19 GMT 9.5
It is perhaps not necessary to know the genuine secrets to work out when they were lost.
For example, it is commonly believed that Masonry comes from stone mason guilds. Did the stone masons have Masonic secrets that they lost?
If not, were the lost secrets invented to provide mystery to the London Masonry of 1717?
Alternatively, did stone masons inherit ritual but not the genuine secrets?
Or was there another organisation that did have secrets, that sponsored/inspired Masonry? For example an Invisible College wanting to put nothing in words?
If the last, then the genuine secrets might not be lost, just not given in Masonry.
If so, perhaps there are other organisations suitable to receive brethren that are ready for some genuine secrets. Thus, time and circumstance may well prove favourable for some. (The higher degrees claim to be such but in my polite view they become increasingly fragmentary)
Yet another possibility is that the London Masons of 1717 did have some genuine secrets but they did not understand them.
An example could be the Blazing Star. This was so obvious to the Greek-educated ritualist that it did not need identification, but by 1750 it is hardly mentioned in Masonic literature.
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2011 20:00:46 GMT 9.5
Surely some of the correspondents must have read Laurence Gardner's The Shadow of Solomon? That I think gives as good an account of any as to how genuine secrets might have been lost. I have read some of Gardner's books, but not that one. I tend to think that he rather materialises spiritual processes. For example, his proposition about star fire seems only relevant to some of the denser magical practices. (I do not recommend them)
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Post by paul on Nov 23, 2011 15:33:52 GMT 9.5
As we have seen above, it is hard to understand how the genuine secrets could have been lost given the official history of Masonry.
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Post by chingus on Nov 23, 2011 16:49:46 GMT 9.5
Again: what are the 'genuine secrets?'
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Post by paul on Nov 23, 2011 18:03:13 GMT 9.5
The genuine secrets cover a range of matters including accessing the celestial mansion and learning how to operate a moral science.
Arguably alchemy is included but not in the craft degrees
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Post by chingus on Nov 24, 2011 2:23:54 GMT 9.5
No disagreement from me here.
OK, so do we know when they were incorporated into Masonic legends?
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Post by LorrB on Nov 24, 2011 7:37:37 GMT 9.5
I am enjoying this discourse... keep it going
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Post by paul on Nov 24, 2011 8:28:30 GMT 9.5
Perhaps the Masonic legends came after the genuine secrets and were then used to preserve the memory of the secrets - rather like the Tarot and playing cards.
The origin of the secrets (as provided to the Children of Light) goes back to the gods who trained their half-breed off-spring in technologies, both material and spiritual.
One of the ancient techniques can still be seen in the triple grip.
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Post by brandt on Dec 7, 2011 1:46:20 GMT 9.5
You see, this is where you are going to lose me. What requirement is there for aliens coming to earth and monkeying around (pun intended). Where are these technologies? I have read Sitchin and the rest who make the ancient astronaut claims. Those "gods" certainly didn't seem spiritual or even really caring.
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Post by paul on Dec 7, 2011 6:36:53 GMT 9.5
The gods, according St Paul are both in Heaven and in Earth. (I am rather surprised that such a teaching survived.) Certainly many of the gods had ethics we would not support. Perhaps they can more accurately called celestial carpetbaggers. One group claimed that all gold belonged to them. The later Spaniards (same hair and skin colour as those gods) were then able to continue the practice. You see, this is where you are going to lose me Each must choose his own path.
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Post by brandt on Dec 7, 2011 9:36:15 GMT 9.5
Each can speak to a wall as well. Do you want to get through to people or adhere with no support to ideas that approach ludicrous?
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Post by paul on Dec 7, 2011 9:57:21 GMT 9.5
I am interested in those determined to operate in the realms of spiritual (Masonic) science.
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Post by LorrB on Dec 7, 2011 10:21:45 GMT 9.5
Do you want to get through to people or adhere with no support to ideas that approach ludicrous? Ever tried to find this forum when you have forgotten the address, and can't remember the one link we have with another reputable forum? Virtually impossible, it was planned that way. Whether this forum expands or diminishes to zilch is of no consequence to us. What will be will be. Ludicrous ideas? People will fly to the moon one day.... that one was way up there on the list.. Sometimes one just has to have the courage to stand up and say what they have to say. If no-one listens, thats ok. The Work is usually rejected to begin with.
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Post by brandt on Dec 7, 2011 11:49:34 GMT 9.5
The trip to the moon was heavily studied, it was not done a whim or a feeling or an opinion. People can say whatever they want. Do they want to just talk or be heard.?
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Post by LorrB on Dec 7, 2011 12:54:26 GMT 9.5
The trip to the moon was heavily studied, it was not done a whim or a feeling or an opinion. People can say whatever they want. Do they want to just talk or be heard.? Man could only dream of flying a little over 100 years ago.. fly to the moon, impossible! People usually say things for a reason. The hidden and inner meaning of life has been heavily studied for thousands of years longer than any study of the moon. Many suffered death because they shared their discoveries. The fact that these discoveries were confirmed (and are continuing to be confirmed) by later generations, who knew they might suffer the same fate, might indicate that the information was neither whim, feeling or opinion. Apart from all that... one does need to be prepared for certain information, have reached a certain age.. ?
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