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Post by paul on Aug 3, 2011 13:23:20 GMT 9.5
I was making a rather obvious statement about the Mysteries - as compared with mainstream Masonry post 1700..
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Post by tamrin on Aug 3, 2011 16:09:35 GMT 9.5
And I was making a rather obvious statement in the context of the title of the category, "Esoteric Masonic Discussion," and that of the thread, "When were the genuine secrets lost?"
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Post by LorrB on Aug 3, 2011 16:24:53 GMT 9.5
How do we know there are genuine secrets - if they were lost so long ago?
And if there are genuine secrets - how will we know we have found them?
Given that the modern version of Freemasonry was put together by a clutch of practicing alchemists do you think that might have something to do with the question at hand? One can recognise alchemy in parts of the various ritual.
Some secrets are terrestrial Some secrets are universal Some secrets are other worldly Do you think masonic secrets are just local news?
The Lauderdale ritual explains the first degree in other worldly terms.
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Post by paul on Aug 3, 2011 17:09:09 GMT 9.5
... Some secrets are terrestrial Some secrets are universal Some secrets are other worldly..... The first two are easy - at least in the introductory phases, being laid out in the EA TB. The third is harder - depending on the meaning of "other worldly". Nevertheless the compasses combined with the square may well give access to other-worldliness.
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Post by tamrin on Aug 3, 2011 18:28:15 GMT 9.5
How do we know there are genuine secrets - if they were lost so long ago? We know from exposures and contemporary accounts - and it wasn't so very long ago, only a few hundred years (not exactly "time immemorial").
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Post by Circleoflight on Aug 7, 2011 5:29:03 GMT 9.5
How are you defining lost? There is literal lost and then symbolic lost or hidden
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Post by paul on Aug 7, 2011 6:40:27 GMT 9.5
How are you defining lost? There is literal lost and then symbolic lost or hidden An interesting point. Clearly Masonry has lost quite a lot of know-how. These days we can barely speculate about the content of a Masonic Science. Brother Knight has made some useful progress in that respect. www.amazon.com/Civilization-One-World-Not-Thought/dp/1842930958As for the genuine secrets relating to the functions of Man, some can still be uncovered with assistance of the ritual and its symbols. This assistance becomes less useful over time as the on-going adaptation of ritual to religion, politics and society erodes the ritual content. Still, the discovery in the 1720s of another ancient landmark, the Third Degree, gives us some hope that there may be a relatively pristine source for renewal.
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Post by Circleoflight on Aug 7, 2011 7:25:45 GMT 9.5
How are you defining lost? There is literal lost and then symbolic lost or hidden An interesting point. Clearly Masonry has lost quite a lot of know-how. These days we can barely speculate about the content of a Masonic Science. Brother Knight has made some useful progress in that respect. www.amazon.com/Civilization-One-World-Not-Thought/dp/1842930958As for the genuine secrets relating to the functions of Man, some can still be uncovered with assistance of the ritual and its symbols. This assistance becomes less useful over time as the on-going adaptation of ritual to religion, politics and society erodes the ritual content. Still, the discovery in the 1720s of another ancient landmark, the Third Degree, gives us some hope that there may be a relatively pristine source for renewal. That looks like a good read. I am not sure if I understand how the assistance becomes less useful. Do you mean, it loses usefulness when it adapts to religion, politics, and society?
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Post by paul on Aug 7, 2011 7:58:09 GMT 9.5
The ritual is adapted to meet the views of the society of the time. For example in Holy Royal Arch, the circle of the zodiac becomes straight lines to fit with the qabalistic Tree of Life
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Post by Circleoflight on Aug 7, 2011 10:20:32 GMT 9.5
The ritual is adapted to meet the views of the society of the time. For example in Holy Royal Arch, the circle of the zodiac becomes straight lines to fit with the qabalistic Tree of Life That is a true observation. The ritual is adapted to the times and, even among us today, some orders place emphases on some things rather than others depending on membership, different focus, country...
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 23, 2011 17:48:49 GMT 9.5
Still, the discovery in the 1720s of another ancient landmark, the Third Degree, gives us some hope that there may be a relatively pristine source for renewal. How do you figure this? Please show how the third degree (with its Hiramic Legend and notion of lost secrets) was the discovery and restoration of a Masonic Ancient Landmark rather than a novel innovative to the body of Masonry from some other source (e.g., Rosicrucianism) as is the presumptive case. Can you show where it had featured in earlier Masonic workings?
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Post by paul on Aug 23, 2011 19:17:07 GMT 9.5
It might be more productive to see if you can identify who introduced the third degree.
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 23, 2011 20:41:49 GMT 9.5
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 23, 2011 20:45:30 GMT 9.5
It might be more productive... Challenging and debunking wild, unfounded assertions is in its way productive.
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Post by cwhite on Aug 23, 2011 22:52:31 GMT 9.5
"I have read that Moses retrieved significant technological devices from the Great Pyramid including his rod - and that the Nazis were hopeful that some of that technology might still be found amongst the Jews."
Curious, the similarities between the dimensions of the empty casket in the pyramid and the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant...
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Post by LorrB on Aug 24, 2011 9:58:01 GMT 9.5
.. and that the sarcophagus is made of porphyry stone.
You might have some fun finding out what happens when limestone (pyramid casing) and porphyry stone (pink granite) get together.
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Post by paul on Aug 24, 2011 10:01:00 GMT 9.5
.... You might have some fun finding out what happens when limestone (pyramid casing) and porphyry stone (pink granite) get together. Fertility
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Post by paul on Aug 24, 2011 10:02:47 GMT 9.5
...Desaguliers appears the most likely contender.... He is certainly a possibility. I wonder where he sourced his ideas - that proved so popular ever after.
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 24, 2011 10:15:40 GMT 9.5
"I have read that Moses retrieved significant technological devices from the Great Pyramid including his rod - and that the Nazis were hopeful that some of that technology might still be found amongst the Jews." Curious, the similarities between the dimensions of the empty casket in the pyramid and the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant... What does this have to do with the "lost secrets" of Freemasonry?
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Post by paul on Aug 24, 2011 10:21:33 GMT 9.5
What does this have to do with the "lost secrets" of Freemasonry? That rather depends upon the nature of the lost secrets. Perhaps those secrets include the hidden mysteries of nature and science. Some indication of that can be found in Brother Knight's Civilisation One www.amazon.com/Civilization-One-World-Not-Thought/dp/1842930958
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