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Post by paul on Aug 14, 2012 12:48:40 GMT 9.5
It is a simple diagram but as you say developing is not always easy, and the diagram does not give much in the way of hints. Do you consider the human to be body and soul (as I was taught by the priests) or body, soul and spirit? That is, is the central circle of Spirit, by its nature always within the human? If so the human does not need redemption? And if, as the diagram indicates, the soul includes the mind, will and emotions, do most humans start life with a very impure soul? Could it be that the emotions do not reside in the soul but in some other structure? The difficulties above are resolved by using a more complex structure for the human - for example the Jewish tradition of 5 souls www.safed-kabbalah.com/ShaarGilgul/Chap01Sec01.htm
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Post by jackjack on Aug 14, 2012 18:16:38 GMT 9.5
Do you consider the human to be body and soul (as I was taught by the priests) or body, soul and spirit? That is, is the central circle of Spirit, by its nature always within the human? If so the human does not need redemption? And if, as the diagram indicates, the soul includes the mind, will and emotions, do most humans start life with a very impure soul? Could it be that the emotions do not reside in the soul but in some other structure? You are a spirit that has a soul--and "you" live inside of a shell called a body. You have an "umbilical cord" that connects "you" to your body; like a baloon, you can fly aroumd and do cool stuff but ultimately always end up coming back to your body. Of course, lots of people used to teach that once you could leave your body, you acheived enlightenment, however as more and more people acheived this, something inside told them that something was still missing and so they stopped teaching that idea. Ultimately, everyone is born in a condition of sin; that is why people need Jesus--because anyone who believes in Jesus gets eternal life. You can fly around all you want and like Lao Tzu, visit anywhere in the world from the comfort of your bedroom, and you can do all kinds of other interesting stuff but the point is, only Jesus can give you eternal life. Doing that fancy stuff though doesn't. As to whether your emotions are actually yours, we must ask a question; is it possible for humans to mistake their emotions for someone else's and vice versa? The answer is yes because there are certain types of people who project and don't realize it; therefore, we can conclude that it is possible and not only that, it is also possible for humans to develop a kind of split personality/insanity complex as well; if you cannot discern the difference between your own thoughts and others' thoughts then something is terrible wrong with your internal filter. However... There are people who can tell the difference between their own thoughts and the thoughts of others. How do we know that we have our own thoughts? Well...I think the answer to that is obvious; we think our own thoughts, write our own thoughts, and say our own thoughts many times. Of course, sometimes we borrow other people's thoughts as well and we believe them too. That is why, sometimes, TV is so powerful
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Post by paul on Aug 14, 2012 22:17:09 GMT 9.5
You are a spirit that has a soul-....everyone is born in a condition of sin; that is why people need Jesus-. Does the sin come from the spirit or the soul? Does Jesus save the spirit or just the soul? How do we know that we have our own thoughts? Well...I think the answer to that is obvious; we think our own thoughts, write our own thoughts, and say our own thoughts many times Unless our mind is controlled by some spirit in which case it thinks its thoughts in our mind and we do not know.
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Post by jackjack on Aug 15, 2012 1:02:50 GMT 9.5
From what I understand, you, as an individual person, are born in the condition of sin. You have to believe in Jesus in order to be rescued from the condition of sin--it's that simple.
Also, why would you think that everyone's mind is controlled by some kind of spirit?
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Post by choochoo808 on Aug 15, 2012 2:32:13 GMT 9.5
How could something born of the natural laws of the universe be in any way, let alone inherently, wrong or evil? How could the most innocent among us spring from a perfect Creation imperfectly?
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Post by paul on Aug 15, 2012 7:28:53 GMT 9.5
From what I understand, you, as an individual person, are born in the condition of sin. You have to believe in Jesus in order to be rescued from the condition of sin--it's that simple. It may be a simple statement, but as we have seen it conceals some very difficult theology. The first of which is: From where does the sin come - from the spirit or from the soul? Also, why would you think that everyone's mind is controlled by some kind of spirit? Being born with a mind controlled by a spirit could of course be described in a religious context as being born in sin. Currently most humans are unable to still their thoughts - hence do not have control over their minds. If the human cannot control its thoughts, how does it know whether its mind is subject to other control?Typical statements revealing the situation: - I don't understand myself - I don't know what came over me - I was not myself - I can't stop thinking about it - My mind goes round and round - I can't think straight - I don't want to think about it - My mind is woolly - I don't know where that thought came from etc. Some humans, however, after much effort are able to control their own thoughts, that being one of the preconditions for becoming a genuine 3rd degree initiate. This is reflected in Freemasonry in the work given to the Apprentice and the Fellowcraft.
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Post by LorrB on Aug 15, 2012 9:37:29 GMT 9.5
jackjack - you make statements which make us think about reasons why or not, thank you.
choochoo808 - have to say you voiced my belief on this subject perfectly, thank you.
paul - you come up with the questions I can't even think of, thank you. You always make me think twice.
..........
jackjack - does your religion state that people can be possessed by evil spirits? That would be mind control wouldn't it?
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Post by jackjack on Aug 15, 2012 14:05:33 GMT 9.5
Ok, three terms to remember: 1. Sinful condition--separation from God 2. Sinful nature--the flesh; that part of you that doesn't want to serve God 3. sin--disobedience to the words/ law of God (ie dishonoring your parents, covetousness, etc) Because of the sinful condition, it isn't possible to have a relationship with God; God, in His love however, finds ways for you to think about him and eternal life (ie sensing His presence). Why? Because without atonement, you cannot have a relationship with God; many years ago, because of the sinful condition, people had to atone for sin before they could worship God. That's why they offered sacrifices; King David says though that sacrifice and a right attitude was what God wanted so after the sacrifice was offered in a right attitude, people had their sins forgiven and they sang and worshipped God. Now that Christ came, He followed the pattern; He offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin, rose from the dead, and was the acceptable sacrifice for our sins. If we believe in Him, our sins are forgiven and no longer do we have the sinful condition (2nd Corinthians 5:17). Another thing to remember as well is that even Christians have a sinful nature that hates serving God and if we listen to it, it can eventually lead us away from God by degrees and onto the wrong path. The best way to describe the sinful nature is this way: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrZ9qVYb9oMake sense?
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Post by LorrB on Aug 15, 2012 15:47:52 GMT 9.5
To be honest, no. Fear of punishment and hope for reward is how we train animals. The highest and greatest motivation for obedience to anything, anyone, and most especially God, is love. Did you know that Sin is Shin in Hebrew? www.ancient-hebrew.org/3_shin.htmlShin is similar to a W and is likened to the shape and function of the human heart. By adding a Shin (or a Sin) to Yod-He-Vau-He (Jehovah or Yahweh) in the Old Testament you get Yod-He-Shin-Vau-He (Yehoshuah or Jesus). So we could take that as a sign that we need to engage heart to become more like Jesus, evolve. Mason's might like to consider the Shin and that Jesus is a Master ... So... if we take Sin as Heart Sinful condition--separation from God Heart ful condition-- extension from the point within One. Sinful nature--the flesh; that part of you that doesn't want to serve God Heart ful nature -- we can't serve God till we get to know and then love Him. If we don't serve, then we still have more to learn. Sin--disobedience to the words/ law of God (ie dishonoring your parents, covetousness, etc) Heart not activated (as yet)? Just coincidence I know but .. re Shin Image = Two front teeth Meaning = Sharp, Press, Eat, Two Name Shin = Shin, Sin Sound = sh Sounds like the Garden of Eden story to me. Just idle thoughts on the subject.
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Post by paul on Aug 15, 2012 16:56:50 GMT 9.5
. Fear of punishment and hope for reward is how we train animals... Oh dear. I think you may have exposed the human condition.
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Post by paul on Aug 15, 2012 16:59:25 GMT 9.5
Ok, three terms to remember: 1. Sinful condition--separation from God 2. Sinful nature--the flesh; that part of you that doesn't want to serve God 3. sin--disobedience to the words/ law of God (ie dishonoring your parents, covetousness, etc).... Jackjack Sometimes it seems to me that the theology gets a bit too hard for you so you just restate the beliefs. Restatement of questioned beliefs is not entirely satisfying for the questioner. (The human can be separated from his god but not separated from God - by definition of God. As you may recall: "Having pervaded this entire Universe with a fragment of Myself, I remain." ) Meanwhile Lorraine is on to something. There is something not right about training humans by the same methods that humans train animals. Equally of course there is something not right about training animals in that way.
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Post by choochoo808 on Aug 16, 2012 0:59:27 GMT 9.5
2. Sinful nature--the flesh; that part of you that doesn't want to serve God This has always vexed me. Why would the Great Architect willfully engineer something contradictory to the Design? Why would he shoot himself in the foot like that? It's akin to coding software that purposely bugs itself and doesn't do what it's designed to do. Why bother?
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Post by Henka on Aug 16, 2012 7:37:09 GMT 9.5
2. Sinful nature--the flesh; that part of you that doesn't want to serve God This has always vexed me. Why would the Great Architect willfully engineer something contradictory to the Design? Why would he shoot himself in the foot like that? It's akin to coding software that purposely bugs itself and doesn't do what it's designed to do. Why bother? That's because the creative force didn't. This is simply man's justification to control people through their sexuality.
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Post by Henka on Aug 16, 2012 7:47:15 GMT 9.5
From what I understand, you, as an individual person, are born in the condition of sin. You have to believe in Jesus in order to be rescued from the condition of sin--it's that simple. From what you understand through Christian theology. The doctrine of original sin was not incorporated into Catholic theology until the 5th century. There are, to this day, three main schools on the doctorine itself, each proving the other two false - which tells me that they are all false. Here is an explanation: www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs03.htm
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Post by jackjack on Aug 22, 2012 16:33:36 GMT 9.5
On the Name of God
I would like to thank you all for being patient, asking questions, and debating with me on this (and other) topics at large; I'm also happy to discover that we have a lot of similar interests in common and thoroughly enjoy a good debate on spirituality in general. However, I must say that there has been some misunderstandings that have occurred and maybe it's because I'm not being clear or not explaining something clear enough.
I've taken the time to look at the current discussion and based off of what little knowledge I do possess regarding Freemasonry, I think that it is important to explain some things. First of all, there is the concept of the paradigm; a paradigm is concepts, ideas, or ways of thinking in a belief system or scientific thought. Having said that, Freemasonry and Christianity are two very different paradigms--and due to this, there are a lot of misunderstandings that can occur when a discussion happens between masons and Christians.
For example, in the Christian paradigm:
1. You cannot worship one, non-exclusive God that accords to the tastes of your own heart 2. You are forbidden to swear oaths 3. You are forbidden to invoke other dieities 4. You are forbidden to bow before every shrine 5. You are forbidden to practice magic or any kind of divination
However, you can:
1. Go to church and worship God 2. Meet at friends' homes to discuss the Bible 3. Have personal development workshops 4. Watch good, edifying movies 5. Develop spiritual gifts through communing with God, personal prayer, and study
Now let's turn our attention to the notion of sin; to my knowledge, Freemasonry claims to "makes good men better." Therefore, there is no "condition" of sin that people are born in; they're born good but they can get better through hard work. However, in Christianity the opposite is true; because Adam and Eve handed the world over to the devil, the whole world consequently is under the devil's influence. God may have created the world but the devil has influence over it; as a result, anyone born into this world, is not only born separated from God [condition of sin] but also has a sinful nature.
Now, believe it or not, Freemasonry does have a plan of salvation:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEDBFUBUc2A
In the paradigm of Freemasonry, we are all born good; and if we stay good and improve ourselves, we'll earn our own salvation and one day when we die, we will go to the "eternal house in the heavens."
In Christianity though, it is totally different; we are all born in a condition of sin and until we are freed from it, we will die and end up going to hell. God doesn't want that though so He offers us a gift called everlasting life; if we ask Him for it, He will give it to us, set us free from that condition of sin, and when we die, we will go to Paradise, live with Him forever, and do whatever He wants us to do up there.
Of course, what's all this got to do with the Name of God?
Well, why do so many people believe that God's Name is a secret? When we look at the whole concept of the Name of God, we discover that we aren't just talking about a noun--we're also dealing with attributes of character; the Bible says that the proof for the existence of God lies in the fact that it is the power of God that gives life to creation--and by power of God, it does not mean cherubims or angels. If you recall, God created everything through the power of His word, not through the agency of angels; therefore, it is His life that sustains all of creation--and since this is the case, then his attributes and character can be clearly observed and since this is true, then how can His Name be a secret?
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Post by paul on Aug 22, 2012 19:13:45 GMT 9.5
Jackjack
Thanks for that interesting post.
It seems to me that you were brought up in a different form of Christianity. It seems very Old Testament compared to mine.
>1. You cannot worship one, non-exclusive God that accords to the tastes of your own heart
There is only one Supreme Being. That does seem to limit choice. I think what you are referring to is choice of gods and St Paul tells us that there are many of those in heaven and in earth.
>2. You are forbidden to swear oaths
That is less clear. Most oaths in English-speaking countries are sworn on the Bible, particularly in the justice system.
>3. You are forbidden to invoke other deities
The Roman church got around that by making the other gods into saints.
>4. You are forbidden to bow before every shrine
Is the key word "every" or "shrine"? There are plenty of shrines where the Divine Spirit shines forth. The traditional sites of pilgrimage are pretty good generally.
>5. You are forbidden to practice magic or any kind of divination
One interesting form of divination practiced by traditional Christians is to concentrate on their question and then open the Bible at random. It is remarkable how well that works.
>Freemasonry claims to "makes good men better." Therefore, there is no "condition" of sin that people are born in;
Is it worth pointing out that not all Christian sects believe in Original Sin? The theology is quite convoluted.
>In the paradigm of Freemasonry, we are all born good;
Freemasonry, as far as I know, does not comment upon the goodness other than to state that we are the brotherhood of Man under the fatherhood of God. Perhaps if God is our father then we are good.
>and if we stay good and improve ourselves, we'll earn our own salvation and one day when we die, we will go to the "eternal house in the heavens."
No doubt you can find as many New Testament verses that support the necessity of good works as those that say belief is all that is required.
>until we are freed from it, we will die and end up going to hell
That is the belief of particular Christian sects. Personally I think that God discovered recycling long before we did.
>why do so many people believe that God's Name is a secret
Surely that is because the god of Abraham was careful about telling his name? He also forbade pictures of himself. Other gods did not seem so shy.
>God created everything through the power of His word, not through the agency of angels; therefore, it is His life that sustains all of creation--and since this is the case, then his attributes and character can be clearly observed and since this is true, then how can His Name be a secret?
Your theological argument is excellent. So do you go with the Jewish or Samaritan name for the god of Abraham?
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Post by paul on Aug 24, 2012 17:55:36 GMT 9.5
... So do you go with the Jewish or Samaritan name for the god of Abraham? jackjack As you may have detected the above is a trick question because the name used by the Jewish high priest does not appear to be in the public domain and the Samaritan version is used. (The Samaritans were/are one of the tribes of Israel so their naming of their god has good credentials) And that name hardly seems to be a personal name being derived from Yod Heh Vav Heh that decomposes into Y and HVH - the first being pronounced as Yod or perhaps Jah and the second as Heveh or Eve. Thus the name could be read as Jah-Eve which reminds us of virgin birth. Even the name Jah is not personal as it seems to derive from the Sumerian god Ea whose name could be translated as House of Water - rather in the same way as the US president could be called The White House and the Queen of England as an institution might be referred to as Buck House. Personally I have not so much interest in the god of Abraham but was taught to relate to the Source of All. Such a functional name dodges the various names used by religious sects. In Masonry the equivalent functional name is the great architect of the universe - on the assumption that there is only one such creator.
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Post by jackjack on Jan 4, 2013 12:00:46 GMT 9.5
What's in a Name? One of the most famous questions uttered in one of Shakespeare's plays; some of us would agree that like the rose, the name itself doesn't matter and rather, it is the character not the name itself that's important. However, if we're talking about the name of God...well, you and I both know that it would be utterly stupid to assume that the name of God is not any different then the insinuations concerning human names by clever poets. Ultimately, when it comes to God's Name, we're not just dealing with His Name--we're dealing with His character and how He has revealed Himself.
So, let us venture further into this dark labrynth...
Now, in the masonic world, I think there is a difference in definition on the term "names of God" as opposed to Christianity; as you duly noted, Masons do view God as an Architect--of course, on extremely RARE occasions, you also hear them refer to Him as "The Divine Artisan" or "The Great Archon". Of course, if you want to be REALLY clever, you could write it as 365 or, I think, 60. This being has a thousand different names in history but is, in essence, the same being being spoken about--hence the "names of God."
But that's the masonic world.
In Christianity, God is "one in essence, three in person." So, instead of saying that He is essentially the same as Baal, Osiris, etc, He is, rather, seperate from them and is, uniquely, in essence, the one and only true God. When we say "names of God", we refer to the names He referred to Himself as in the OT and Nt--El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc...
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Post by LorrB on Jan 4, 2013 20:25:24 GMT 9.5
Hi jackjack ... happy New Year.
God, One in essence might be referring to His Omnipresence? We cannot help but be part of God?
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Post by paul on Jan 5, 2013 17:34:29 GMT 9.5
Hi Jackjack
>In Christianity, God is "one in essence, three in person." .... When we say "names of God", we refer to the names He referred to Himself as in the OT
The Old Testament does not refer to a Trinity. How are we to know that the god of Abraham is actually a Trinity?
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