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Post by paul on Oct 8, 2011 15:36:30 GMT 9.5
The simplification of belief is not a guaranteed path to reality - for example where the believer lacks some critical constructs.
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Post by tamrin on Oct 8, 2011 17:21:30 GMT 9.5
The simplification of belief is not a guaranteed path to reality - for example where the believer lacks some critical constructs. Who was offering guarantees? Not I. Still, the unwarranted complication of belief (superstition) is more likely to lead to error than to reality. I agree that an educated opinion is to be preferred over one arising from ignorance. Instead, I see more of the Dunning-Kruger effect here.
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Post by paul on Oct 8, 2011 17:33:59 GMT 9.5
.. Still, the unwarranted complication of belief (superstition) is more likely to lead to error than to reality... I am not sure what evidence exists for that statement. For example, attributing a separate deity/saint for every divine attribute may be an unwarranted complication but it does not necessarily detract from and may even assist the natural progress towards enlightenment.
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Post by tamrin on Oct 8, 2011 17:43:02 GMT 9.5
Here our difference appears to be irreconcilable:
You opting for unwarranted complexity and I preferring an adequate simplicity.
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Post by paul on Oct 9, 2011 15:08:05 GMT 9.5
This is a bit out of sequence now but not worth another thread Peer review has its own shortcomings - as many discoverers, and scientists, have learned. "Dan Shechtman, Ph.D., Technion-Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa, Israel, has received the 2011 Nobel Prize in Chemistry after three decades of ridicule by his science peers. “I was thrown out of my research group ( in 1982). They said I brought shame on them with what I was saying (about discovering quasicrystals)."
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Post by tamrin on Oct 9, 2011 15:16:23 GMT 9.5
Was this a formal peer review? If so perhaps it is a good example of why it is but one method of Viveka (I presume other methods led to the eventual recognition of his discovery). What methods of rational discrimination do the **** employ to distinguish between the real and the unreal?
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Post by paul on Oct 9, 2011 17:10:07 GMT 9.5
I think the process (by peers) is akin to a vote. It is however rational discrimination. Research teams get funding based on their conformity to existing norms.
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Post by tamrin on Oct 10, 2011 5:12:44 GMT 9.5
I think the process (by peers) is akin to a vote. It is however rational discrimination. Research teams get funding based on their conformity to existing norms. In a formal peer review those doing the reviewing do not vote, they give expert, reasoned opinions for all to see. Research teams get funding based on the perceived likelihood of them finding something new (reputations depend on them doing so). What methods of rational discrimination do the **** employ to distinguish between the real and the unreal?
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Post by paul on Oct 10, 2011 8:05:19 GMT 9.5
As we know reason is no better (and often worse) than the data available.
Are there perceptual processes that could augment the materialistic data?
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Post by tamrin on Oct 10, 2011 12:16:08 GMT 9.5
As we know reason is no better (and often worse) than the data available. "As we know," without data speculation is in vain. "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein Are there perceptual processes that could augment the materialistic data? By augment do you mean making unwarranted assumptions? BTW, I am not ruling out intuition corroborated by reason.
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Post by paul on Oct 10, 2011 12:42:32 GMT 9.5
There are even more methods of perception (data acquisition) than the physical senses and intuition. Even the mind, when trained can be engaged in perception. Consider the case of Tesla.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2011 16:31:41 GMT 9.5
There are even more methods of perception (data acquisition) than the physical senses and intuition. Even the mind, when trained can be engaged in perception. Consider the case of Tesla. Intuition, imagination, whatever, is fine, with objective verification.
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Post by tamrin on Oct 10, 2011 18:55:55 GMT 9.5
Even the mind, when trained can be engaged in perception. As Johnson said to Boswell, "I refute it thus" - Your assertion is wrong because my mind, trained in rational discrimination, perceives it to be wrong.
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Post by paul on Oct 10, 2011 19:55:55 GMT 9.5
Even the mind, when trained can be engaged in perception. ...my mind, trained in rational discrimination, perceives it to be wrong. Proof indeed
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Post by LorrB on Oct 11, 2011 8:05:54 GMT 9.5
Even the mind, when trained can be engaged in perception. As Johnson said to Boswell, "I refute it thus" - Your assertion is wrong because my mind, trained in rational discrimination, perceives it to be wrong. Rational discrimination is fine, but how does it handle the abstract? Freemasonry is essentially mysterious, ritualistic, and ceremonial, representing abstract truth in concrete form. Earth (or substance) smothering energy (or vitality) is the mystery behind the murder of the Builder.
www.scribd.com/doc/9491848/Manly-P-Hall-Lost-Keys-of-Freemasonry Rational discrimination has not worked all that well when trying to unravel the symbols and allegories of Freemasonry. It tends to promote arguments (dogmatic at times). Thus, I would say that rational discrimination can be aligned with 'Earth' - see above. How many Brn deny that Freemasonry has anything whatsoever to do with the mysteries, even though as an EA they are told that they are now open to the mysteries and privileges of Freemasonry. How many times have we been told that the true secrets cannot be told to anyone, they are assimilated by the Bro and then realised. His life, efforts, all that he is, being his password to these mysteries and privileges.
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Post by LorrB on Oct 11, 2011 9:17:28 GMT 9.5
This is what I was trying to say... Transmutation
Masonry is eternal truth, personified, idealized, and yet made simple. Eternal truth alone can serve it. Virtue is its priest, patience its warden, illumination its master. The world cannot know this, however, save when Masons in their daily life prove that it is so. Its truth is divine, and is not to be desecrated or defamed but the thoughtlessness of its keepers. Its temple is a holy place, to be entered in reverence. Material thoughts and material dissensions must be left without its gate. They may not enter. Only the pure of heart, regenerated and transmuted, may pass the sanctity of its veil. The schemer has no place in its ranks or the materialist in its shrine; for Masons walk on hallowed ground, sanctified by the veneration of ages. Let the tongue be stilled, let the heart be still, let the mind be stilled. In reverence and in the silence, stillness shall speak: the voice of stillness is the voice of the Creator. Show your light and your power to men, but before God what have you to offer, save in humility? Your robes, your tinsel, and your jewels mean naught to Him, until your own body and soul, gleaming with the radiance of perfection, become the living ornaments of your Lodge. See previous link.
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Post by Henka on Oct 11, 2011 10:22:10 GMT 9.5
As an aside, I ran across The Lost Keys of Freemasonry at a flea market this weekend for $5.
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Post by LorrB on Oct 11, 2011 11:59:21 GMT 9.5
You know what I think about Synchronicity... I rather think you might enjoy reading it I don't know if you realise that Paul and I have never met.. he lives way up north and I, way down south in Australia, a vast land. I can't count the times I am left scratching my head about something he says and then suddenly I end up with a book or person who/which explains the subject matter. The same happens in reverse, I will be wondering about something and then the thread comes up on the forum and some of my questions are answered. A recent example... I was wondering about Kundalini and why all are advised to be cautious with regards to raising it artificially. Especially as it is supposed to induce Cosmic Consciousness when it rises to the Crown Chakra. Paul then started the thread on Spontaneous Human Combustion, which led me to look into that further and then I discovered the link with Plasma Energy -> Chi -> Prana -> Serpent energy et al. and SHC. I also learned why the monks try to climb to the top of Mt Fuji wearing wooden thongs ... the wood lessens the threat of SHC !! Check out the link I made on that thread.. it is one I have to read and re-read.. it is so simple (and possibly a little frightening).
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Post by tamrin on Oct 11, 2011 12:21:48 GMT 9.5
Rational discrimination has not worked all that well when trying to unravel the symbols and allegories of Freemasonry. To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" (it works for me). Surely it is better to exercise rational discrimination in unravelling the symbols and allegories of our rational science than to simply accept whatever ****, irrational notion is expressed by whomsoever.
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Post by LorrB on Oct 11, 2011 14:59:41 GMT 9.5
I take it you are well acquainted with the lady to lend such weight to her words, Tamrin ;D
I actually believe that one's mind is composed of veils, each one of which we must draw asunder..
Hence the difficulty most people have with trying to meditate successfully.
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