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Post by Chutzpah on Sept 1, 2011 17:51:49 GMT 9.5
Please quote John Mack stating he believed any accounts of alien abductions to be physical alien abductions.
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Post by stewart edwards on Sept 1, 2011 17:56:23 GMT 9.5
Please quote John Mack stating he believed any accounts of alien abductions to be physical alien abductions. This was answered some posts back. As he was never present when the abductions took place it would be professionally impossible for him to do so. He was however very clear that they had suffered something "real" and not a mental or physical disorder.
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Post by paul on Sept 1, 2011 19:57:11 GMT 9.5
It is also worth distinguishing abductions from alien abductions. Some groups may find it useful to present as aliens so that the abductees can be suitably ignored.
For example, some abductees when later hypnotically regressed describe entities that they consider are alien but when hypnotised more deeply start to recall some of the entities having German accents.
Games within games.
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 1, 2011 20:08:09 GMT 9.5
Indeed for it is the nature of the phenomenon.
Also worth bearing in mind that when you look at a cultural context across our world, there are many similar accounts, using the language of the day, often involving what we would today call ufos.
Even the bible I think has chariots from heaven and women getting impregnated by non humans (a not uncommon claim by female abductees).
One thing that is fairly clear is that this is not a post Roswell 1940 whatever phenomenon, it goes right back into the history of humanity, across all cultures.
Added: Meant to say Paul what is really interesting in how it has developed since the second world war, given the dark side esoteric nature of the Third Reich. Also worth noting that as the USA reputedly took the assets knowledge and key scientists of the Third Reich back to the states to work on the Atom bomb etc, it is interesting today how the US is routinely claimed to be the focal point of this international phenomenon and the one which is least open and transparent on the issue. Leslie Keen book UFOs published last year is an excellent source of information on the relative openness of different governments.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 1, 2011 20:51:55 GMT 9.5
Please quote John Mack stating he believed any accounts of alien abductions to be physical alien abductions. This was answered some posts back. As he was never present when the abductions took place it would be professionally impossible for him to do so. He was however very clear that they had suffered something "real" and not a mental or physical disorder.So Mack does not add at all to the weight of evidence against a null hypothesis, in relation to physical, alien abduction. '...they had suffered something "real"...' What do you mean by "real" in this instance (did the pilloried professor use that term)? Do you mean something physical (i.e., something which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it)? Please note:
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Post by stewart edwards on Sept 1, 2011 20:54:51 GMT 9.5
What do you mean by "real" in this instance. Do you mean something physical? I dont mean anything Tamrin, it was John Macks word, not mine.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 1, 2011 21:20:49 GMT 9.5
What do you mean by "real" in this instance. Do you mean something physical? I dont mean anything Tamrin, it was John Macks word, not mine.Well surely you have some understanding of what he meant and intended to convey that meaning, or are you just repeating what might as well be gibberish. An hallucination is a fact, not an error; what is erroneous is a judgment based upon it
Bertrand Russell
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Post by LorrB on Sept 2, 2011 8:11:44 GMT 9.5
Tamrin... your avatar is a dead give away about your intentions here. It is becoming tiresome. There must be something positive in your life that you can share with us.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 2, 2011 10:09:46 GMT 9.5
Tamrin... your avatar is a dead give away... Wow! Nothing gets past you! Yep, I confess, I'm here to debunk nonsense: Specifically superstitious nonsense being advanced under the banner of Freemasonry. If not for that spurious connection, I would avoid this forum like the plague.
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Post by paul on Sept 2, 2011 10:25:36 GMT 9.5
... If not for that spurious connection, I would avoid this forum like the plague. I wonder about that. For example this thread is in the Esoteric - Non Masonic section.
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Post by paul on Sept 2, 2011 11:28:18 GMT 9.5
I guess you are stuck here for the life of the forum.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 2, 2011 12:13:41 GMT 9.5
Lucky you!
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Post by Chitzpah on Sept 2, 2011 17:56:25 GMT 9.5
Tamrin... your avatar is a dead give away about your intentions here. It is becoming tiresome. There must be something positive in your life that you can share with us. Is this a case of only true believers being welcome here? Or is it a case of following Oscar Wilde's advice:- "Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing."
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 2, 2011 18:11:53 GMT 9.5
Tamrin, please take a deep breath, and have a stiff drink before you respond to this, please fight the urge to instinctively respond and think on it for a while Yep, I confess, I'm here to debunk nonsense: Specifically superstitious nonsense being advanced under the banner of Freemasonry. If not for that spurious connection, I would avoid this forum like the plague. 1. You Tamrin are a Freemason. 2. You joined one particular fraternity that has its own worldview. 3. There are other fraternities (and lets face it Tamrin, if you look at the events in France just now going into and out of amity happens) 4. Now even in the ugle and amity world you can find deeply esoteric stuff, it just tends to be siphoned off to the higher levels of the more (not sure right word, but I mean the ones you have to go through SRIA first) higher orders. This does mean that it can be said that it isnt craft freemasonry, but it is those same freemasons doing it, using the craft system to select entrants. Even on Steves forum there was recently an ugle chap explaining this in a different way (he was more concerned about how French masonry tends to put the esoteric at Craft which could be unsafe for many masons - or similar). he is not the only ugle and amity mason to say such things. How do you debunk them Tamrin? 5. And do you also debunk the ugle and amity authors over the years who have quite happily published masonic books that could give conspiracy theorists wet dreams For example just now I am reading Solomons Power Brokers by Knight and Butler, which does make me smile . Again are these and other freemasons also wrong? 6. Can you definitively say, hand on heart, that every single ugle and amity mason, who is into such things are wrong? Far less the non ugle and amity world, where you may find it rather more extensive at craft level. So Tamrin, I suppose I am asking is why should I, believe you, and not them? Surely I should trust, for example, someone I know is in every single ugle order going, and I understand been through many a chair, and who is openly esoteric? Or are they all wrong and Tamrin is right? My point Tamrin, is tolerance. You have presumably in your first degree sworn to be tolerant. Yet you are openly hostile to beliefs that you may find quite close to home if you were to join the right orders, or even if you were to simply start to view your own craft ritual in a new light, as some of your brothers have done. Why should I believe you Tamrin? Especially since you have now shown your true colours. If it is all superstitious nonsense why do your own amity brothers write such stuff (eg Solomons Power Brokers Star Families ;D)
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Post by paul on Sept 2, 2011 18:12:09 GMT 9.5
Cooperative exploration of the hidden mysteries of nature and science is much more likely to be productive than argument. Such exploration proceeds more easily as the moral virtues of Masonry are progressively developed.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 2, 2011 21:11:01 GMT 9.5
Cooperative exploration of the hidden mysteries of nature and science is much more likely to be productive than argument. Such exploration proceeds more easily as the moral virtues of Masonry are progressively developed. An argument involves laying out a case in a reasonable manner.
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Post by tamrin on Sept 2, 2011 21:15:30 GMT 9.5
you have to go through SRIA first I am an SRIS Magus, etc., etc. There is genuine esoterica and then there is "esoterica" (e.g., giants, aliens and unicorns).
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Post by tamrin on Sept 2, 2011 21:22:48 GMT 9.5
You have presumably in your first degree sworn to be tolerant. Further along in my Masonic career I was sworn to the following duty:
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Post by stewart edwards on Sept 2, 2011 21:25:54 GMT 9.5
you have to go through SRIA first I am an SRIS Magus, etc., etc. There is genuine esoterica and then there is "esoterica" (e.g., giants, aliens and unicorns). Please dont take this the wrong way Tamrin, but I am speechless. You just dont come accross anywhere the same way as other such high grade esoterics that I have knowingly encountered (except possibly to a degree one). OK though if the SRIA are going to award you Magus, being the top of the tree that does add credibility to your words. But forgive me Tamrin, but you are probably the most mundane magus that I have ever knowingly stumbled across. Thats not a criticism by the way, just an observation.
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Post by stewart edwards on Sept 2, 2011 21:36:22 GMT 9.5
You have presumably in your first degree sworn to be tolerant. Further along in my Masonic career I was sworn to the following duty: 1. But dont forget where you came from Tamrin. If you loose sight of the basics your foundations will crumble and darkness could take hold. Tolerance matters, which is I guess why in UGLE it is the definition of a True freemason in its primary tenet. 2. And here is a reason why I could not become a Knight Kadosh myself, for while I agree with most of what you are bound to do, I could not make war, for that is a very fast route to darkness. I prefer the touch hearts approach. Though I can see from an esoteric perspective how war can achieve a lot fast, again as illustrated in the Third Reich, and in terms of the opportunities it can give soldiers for self development. But I could not agree to wage war of any sort at this moment in human history for it is simply to dangerous.
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