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Post by paul on Nov 17, 2010 12:17:30 GMT 9.5
We are told that the working tools have moral uses but all we receive are moralising discourses about the tools. The tools themselves are not used but are merely moralised about.
Could the word "moral" be a veiling? Are there inner actions and situations that impact human morality that may be illustrated by the symbols of working tools?
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Post by LorrB on Nov 17, 2010 12:33:07 GMT 9.5
Can you suggest what "moral" might be veiling?
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Post by paul on Nov 17, 2010 12:54:07 GMT 9.5
No doubt you are familiar with Amos 7
7 Then he showed me this: Adonai was standing by a wall made with a plumbline, and he had a plumbline in his hand. 8 ADONAI asked me, "'Amos, what do you see?" I answered, "A plumbline." Then Adonai said, "I am going to put a plumbline in among my people Isra'el; I will never again overlook their offenses.
Clearly this plumb line had a moral use. Its presence made the detection of wrong doing so easy that Adonai would never again overlook (leave unpunished?) offences by his people.
In Masonry we operate this principle somewhat physically by requiring the brethren to stand upright. In practice this does indeed directly impact the moral character of the brethren.
And of course some lodges require the brethren to square the lodge carefully - again a practice that directly impacts the alignment of the brethren with the structure of Creation.
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Post by LorrB on Nov 17, 2010 13:34:38 GMT 9.5
7 Then he showed me this: Adonai was standing by a wall made with a plumbline, and he had a plumbline in his hand. 8 ADONAI asked me, "'Amos, what do you see?" I answered, "A plumbline." Then Adonai said, "I am going to put a plumbline in among my people Isra'el; I will never again overlook their offenses. Clearly this plumb line had a moral use. Its presence made the detection of wrong doing so easy that Adonai would never again overlook (leave unpunished?) offences by his people. I know you have been very patient with me on this matter, but I still don't get it  I Adonai is a god name and god is omniscient, surely he would not need something like a plumbline to detect wrong doing? I have always taken this part of the bible to be referring to humanity as a whole reaching 'the age of 7 years' - that age at which young people are supposed to be able to distinguish right from wrong, and therefore able to be held accountable. My alternative was Jesus/Joshua/Jeshua being 'the plumbline' against which we would be tried. He having given the Teaching, do we have ears that hear. |
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Post by paul on Nov 17, 2010 14:03:34 GMT 9.5
I Adonai is a god name and god is omniscient, surely he would not need something like a plumbline to detect wrong doing? .... My alternative was Jesus/Joshua/Jeshua being 'the plumbline' against which we would be tried. There is no suggestion that Adonai needed the plumb line. I suggest that it was for his people so that they could try and prove their actions. This would require that human actions have inner plane effects that can be detected. The view that Adonai is omniscient may be based upon the practice of one of the Sumerian gods (Enki as I recall) of having "an uplifted eye" (satellite?) above his house "that scanned all the lands". Enki/Ea is probably the same god as Jah (Adonai). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnkiIn theological terms such a physical omniscience is easily confused with a metaphysical omniscience as demonstrated by the Beingness referenced by the term GAOTU The proposition of Jesus as a plumb line is within the orthodox Christian practice of interpretation. In a similar vein, Jesus is interpreted as the unicorn of the OT and the Grail of the Middle Ages. The orthodoxy of the time tends to add qualities to the chosen deity (and edit texts) in order to deal with theological, mythological and historical anomalies. In retrospect the additions and edits become less plausible. |
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Post by Henka on Nov 18, 2010 4:32:41 GMT 9.5
Most "Holy Books," so called, are metaphorical and allegorical in nature. I believe it is a mistake to interpret them in light of literalism.
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2010 5:20:47 GMT 9.5
There is much more data about the gods than holy books.
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Post by LorrB on Nov 18, 2010 8:10:15 GMT 9.5
Wouldn't that be the function of our conscience?
We are conscious when we are born, but we acquire a conscience as we evolve.
I have read that there are degrees of conscience and that we should practise understanding and aid those with a lesser degree.
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2010 8:37:37 GMT 9.5
You could argue that but then I would use that interpretation to re-examine the original data.
I would wonder about the state of the Israelites before their god provided them with a single "plumb line"
Were they previously without any conscience?
Did they afterwards have to make do with only one conscience for the whole nation?
Then I would conclude that a psychological interpretation does not do well with the full set of data in the original statements.
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Post by LorrB on Nov 18, 2010 9:09:37 GMT 9.5
Doesn't a society of people take on a sort of group conscience?
Could the collective conscience of Earth Humanity be compared to that of a more evolved and (hopefully) wiser civilisation from another planet?
Israel was a nation, not an individual. Although I personally believe that Israel does not refer to the Jews.
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2010 9:14:10 GMT 9.5
Doesn't a society of people take on a sort of group conscience? You could take the view that the provision of a single plumb line is code for the god of Israel conducting metaphysical surgery upon the Jewish people to insert a conscience. The people therefore went from having no conscience to have a single unified conscience. There would have been remarkable social changes in moving from anarchy to social harmony. Is there evidence for that? Did other peoples of that time have consciences? Perhaps there are more encouraging lines of thought. For example, why is whatever it is that occurs with the Jewish people symbolised by a plumb line? |
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Post by LorrB on Nov 18, 2010 9:20:06 GMT 9.5
Edgar Cayce's source has this to say on the matter at hand.. CAYCE QUOTE: Let there be the study, the closer study of the promises which are made in the book [BIBLE], yes, the history of the Jew; yet these HAVING FAILED, who is Isreal? Not the Jew, but Israel is THE SEEKER AFTER TRUTH. 5377-1
Other related Cayce quotes:
For those WHO SEEK are indeed Israel, and Israel indeed is ALL who seek; meaning not those as of the children of Abraham, but of every nation, every tribe, every tongue -- Israel of the Lord! This is the full meaning of Israel. 2772-1
Q: What should be understood be the statement (Genesis 49:10) "The scepter has not departed from Israel"?
CAYCE's ANSWER: Israel is the chosen of the Lord and that His promise, His care, His love has not departed from those THAT SEEK TO KNOW HIS WAY, THAT SEEK TO SEE HIS FACE, THAT WOULD DRAW NIGH UNTO HIM. THIS is the meaning, this should be the understanding to all. Those that seek are Israel. So Abraham means call; so Israel means those who seek. How obtained the supplanter the name Israel? For he wrestled with the angel, and he was face to face with the seeking to know His way. 262-28
www.reversespins.com/cayceisrael.html
Boldface my addition |
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Post by LorrB on Nov 18, 2010 9:29:55 GMT 9.5
Can we test this supposition with Amos?
The Lord stands at a dividing line - those that wish to pass through must satisfy the criteria for doing so. Pleading, begging, bribery will not work. If one seeks the secrets of the higher degrees of the All that Is - one must demonstrate the acceptable requirements for doing so. Hard work, experience, understanding, faith, hope, charity, perseverence, temperance, fortitude, prudence, justice, etc etc.
Just like Freemasonry.
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2010 9:36:44 GMT 9.5
Do you mean that the plumb line is a vertical dividing line?
If we take a symbolic account and alter the symbolism we may finish well away from the original intent.
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Post by LorrB on Nov 18, 2010 9:37:04 GMT 9.5
Isn't it interesting that Abraham means 'call' and 'the call' involves sacrificing some things most cherished, but if one is willing to make the necessary sacrifice one will be recognised as an earnest seeker after Truth.
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2010 9:43:59 GMT 9.5
.... Abraham means 'call' .... Do you have a link for this? The best I can find is "The verbal explanation of Genesis 17:5 is hard to trace etymologically, as the new element rhm (rhm) does not exist in Hebrew. Perhaps God is suggesting that something unique is happening to Abram. ...... The Jewish Encyclopedia merrily states that "The form 'Abraham' yields no sense in Hebrew," " www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Abraham.html |
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Post by LorrB on Nov 18, 2010 10:06:10 GMT 9.5
Do you mean that the plumb line is a vertical dividing line? If we take a symbolic account and alter the symbolism we may finish well away from the original intent. Adonai = Lord Wall = barrier (wall, window, fence, guarded door) Plumb line = an instument which provides 'a true straight line' using the the law of physics (non man made). Our judgement is prone to error, we are unable to judge if we, or a brother, are ready the for the next step forward or upward or inward - however - the God's judgement is always correct. Moral... even though we have done our best and worked our butts off - if it isn't happening for us then we need to have patience and faith that God knows what's best. |
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Post by paul on Nov 18, 2010 10:17:01 GMT 9.5
I have seen a metaphysical plumb line coming down into a cluster of beehives
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Post by LorrB on Nov 18, 2010 10:25:19 GMT 9.5
.... Abraham means 'call' .... Do you have a link for this? Q) What should be understood by the statement, “The scepter has not departed from Israel?” [262-27, Par. 3-A]
(A) Israel is the chosen of the Lord, and that His promise, His care, His love, has not departed from those that seek to know His way, that seek to see His face, that would draw nigh unto Him. THIS is the meaning, this should be the understanding to all. Those that seek are Israel. Those that seek not, have ye not heard, “Think not to call thyselves the promise in Abraham. Know ye not that the Lord is able to raise up children of Abraham from the very stones?” So Abraham means call; so Israel means those who seek. How obtained the supplanter the name Israel? For he wrestled with the angel, and he was face to face with the seeking to know His way. So it is with us that are called and seek His face; we are the Israel. Know, then, the scepter, the promise, the love, the glory of the Lord has not departed from them that seek His face!
www.edgarcayce.org/_AncientMysteriesTemp/cayceisraelreadi.html
books.google.com.au/books?id=9Wa1C73NM0UC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=abraham+means+call+%2Bcayce&source=bl&ots=ifWp5UYPh9&sig=8gsdCIDkku4rIafHE6wVyLJbcug&hl=en&ei=m3bkTOqkNdT4ccbO6ZoM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=abraham%20means%20call%20%2Bcayce&f=false |
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Post by LorrB on Nov 18, 2010 10:36:20 GMT 9.5
Please note... the caps appear as in the original.... BE STILL, MY CHILDREN! BOW THINE HEADS, THAT THE LORD OF THE
WAY MAY MAKE KNOWN UNTO YOU THAT HAVE BEEN CHOSEN FOR A
SERVICE IN THIS PERIOD WHEN THERE IS THE NEED OF THAT SPIRIT
BEING MADE MANIFEST IN THE EARTH, THAT THE WAY MAY BE KNOWN
TO THOSE THAT SEEK THE LIGHT! FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER
WILL BE MADE MANIFEST THROUGH YOU THAT ARE FAITHFUL UNTO THE
CALLING WHEREIN THOU HAST BEEN CALLED! YE THAT HAVE NAMED
THE NAME MAKE KNOWN IN THY DAILY WALKS OF LIFE, IN THE LITTLE
ACTS OF THE LESSONS THAT HAVE BEEN BUILDED IN THINE OWN
EXPERIENCE, THROUGH THOSE ASSOCIATIONS OF SELF IN MEDITATION
AND PRAYER, THAT HIS WAY MAY BE KNOWN AMONG MEN: FOR HE
CALLS ON ALL - WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME - AND HE STANDS AT THE
DOOR OF THINE OWN CONSCIENCE, THAT YE MAY BE AWARE THAT THE
SCEPTER HAS NOT DEPARTED FROM ISRAEL, NOR HAVE HIS WAYS BEEN
IN VAIN: FOR TODAY, WILL YE HARKEN, THE WAY IS OPEN - I,
MICHAEL, CALL ON THEE! [See also 262-28, Par. 11-A, 17-A,
and 18-A.]
www.cayce.egympie.com.au/Z262-27.htm |
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