|
|
Post by stepnwolf on Mar 5, 2013 19:07:24 GMT 9.5
My fallen-away-Catholic neighbor once observed that I must have some terrible sins that forced me to go to church every Sunday. He couldn't believe that I really wanted to be there. Nor was I like another neighbor who returned home from church, “juiced up on Jesus,” as he might put it, after an emotional encounter with the Deity. His own God was superior to any of the others, because it encompassed all of nature, all the wonders of the universe.
That conversation made me examine why I approached Sunday Mass in the same way I might attend a L. meeting. Over the course of any day I feel a call, if you will, to stop what I'm doing to sense his Presence. It's not exactly a high, more like an assurance that he is there. By the end of the week this awareness seems to need a booster shot, which I can get in community with similar thinking people.
I recognize that many do not need these experiences in their Quest. They don't need a personal Diety to encourage their way along the Path. It's taken years to recognize the strength in humility. I'm in no way humble, but I do see that for me that is the way to go. In the Catholic Church there is a Saint many of us call “The Little Flower,” St. Therese of Lisieux, who epitomized the humble way. She probably drew her inspiration from her practice of the presence.
|
|
|
|
Post by paul on Mar 5, 2013 19:36:41 GMT 9.5
Long ago I spent some months touring around parts of Europe paying particular attention to churches. Generally the Catholic churches felt the best (excluding some dark churches in France) and when turning a corner in a cathedral to where Mass was being celebrated, the energy was better still.
That said, some of the Anglican cathedrals were the best for freedom of thought - and a Scottish church was the worst.
|
|
|
|
Post by LorrB on Mar 6, 2013 7:38:59 GMT 9.5
Freemasonry and its working tools, including the 24" gauge.
Your post led me to check who the AA founders were.. I wanted to see if they might have been Freemasons (as were the founders of Rotary and Lions Int. Apparently not, but I was not surprised to discover that the two co-founders were acquainted with Swedenborg and Spiritualism. Bill Wilson stated that the 12 steps were channelled material. As usual, everyone laughed at him, including his priest friend who rather thought it might be the devil tricking him.
(Why do people who seem to doubt the existence of non-corporeal beings in the main, then go on to assume that if there is a skerrick of truth to information coming through, then if must be from the devil. ?
And is that related to the weird phenomenon of other people who would prefer to believe that their deceased loved ones are dead and gone forever rather than hear stories and read books offering details of the after death state/s. ? )
|
|
|
|
Post by paul on Mar 6, 2013 8:32:32 GMT 9.5
>Why do people who seem to doubt the existence of non-corporeal beings in the main, then go on to assume that if there is a skerrick of truth to information coming through, then if must be from the devil. ? It is a matter of the internal authority in the human maintaining its dominance. a406.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=esononmas&action=display&thread=985 |
|
|
|
Post by paul on Mar 6, 2013 8:33:02 GMT 9.5
The 12 steps of the AA are quite impressive.
|
|
|
|
Post by paul on May 13, 2013 8:21:07 GMT 9.5
Does the "practice of the presence" have a different meaning or target in a charismatic church?
|
|
|
|
Post by stepnwolf on May 13, 2013 22:35:10 GMT 9.5
Does the "practice of the presence" have a different meaning or target in a charismatic church? There is charismatic and then there's CHARASMATIC: two versions of the one movement that attempt to answer man's thirst for the experience of God. Using the term found in some German philosophers, the Dionysian sub-set is named after the Greek god Dionysus who is associated with ecstasy and inebriation. Some of the protestant groups become intoxicated with God and identify themselves with the power of the Holy Spirit. They exhibit to a varying degree the characteristics of a believer as list in Mark 16, like casting out demons, speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit. The other sub-set we can call Apollonian, named after Apollo, the god of the sun, of reason and healing. The experience of the diety comes in stillness and quiet. We can detect the Apollonian approach in the worship found among the quakers (=Friends) and Catholics. Charismatic movements abound in other religions without necessarily using the term. Zazenkai and sesshin in Buddhism are unmistakably Apollonian while some of the sects of Hinduism display definite Dionysian characteristics. Can we assume from the universality of the two types of practice that the duality of Apollonian and Dionysian can also be applied to humans, among other classifications? |
|
|
|
Post by paul on May 14, 2013 7:40:41 GMT 9.5
Dionysus may be better known under other names. Young's Literal Translation Exodus 17:15 and Moses buildeth an altar, and calleth its name Jehovah-Nissi, Now that altar was on Sinai and a slight rearrangement of letters (allowing for the lack of vowels in Hebrew) makes Jehovah-Nissi rather like Jehovah (of) Sinai "Jehovah Nissi (Heb.). The androgyne of Nissi (See “Dionysos”). The Jews worshipped under this name Bacchus-Osiris, Dio-Nysos, and the multiform Joves of Nyssa, the Sinai of Moses. Universal tradition shews Bacchus reared in a cave of Nyssa. Diodorus locates Nysa between Phœnicia and Egypt, and adds, “Osiris was brought up in Nysa he was son of Zeus and was named from his father (nominative Zeus, genitive Dios) and the place Dio-nysos”—the Zeus or Jove of Nyssa." theosophy.org/Blavatsky/Theosophical%20Glossary/Thegloss.htm#jThus Jehovah-Nissi may well be the same as Dionysus. I also wonder about the relationship between Apollonius and (St) Paulus. |
|
|
|
Post by paul on May 14, 2013 7:46:49 GMT 9.5
Returning to charismatic, I used to visit an Assembly of God church to watch a particular pastor who was quite good at moving energy - as long as the Earth was prepared to receive the flow. Anyway the entity that he drew to himself and the church was not Christ or Jesus but could be described as one of the Angels of the Presence en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_of_the_PresenceThat raises the question as to how do charismatic churches know what comes when they call. There are certainly plenty of individual dark churches - but do they know that they are dark? Identification of spirits was a real problem for spiritualists in the mid 19th century and it took about 50 years to learn to distinguish lying spirits. As I recall after many requests those spiritualists were given key words to distinguish the good from the bad. |
|
|
|
Post by LorrB on May 17, 2013 8:18:07 GMT 9.5
That raises the question as to how do charismatic churches know what comes when they call. There are certainly plenty of individual dark churches - but do they know that they are dark? Might we ask the same question about masonic lodges? |
|
|
|
Post by paul on May 17, 2013 8:33:44 GMT 9.5
>Might we ask the same question about masonic lodges? Mainstream Masonry is protected where it uses functional namings in the invocations. For example the term GAOTU is a functional term and relatively free of belief-based interference. The use of religious terms is more difficult particularly where they are imprecise. For example who is our Emmanuel? We may have some beliefs about that but those beliefs may not be correct. Lodges in regions prone to fundamentalism may be further at risk. And of course: by their fruits you shall know them. There are also lodges that parallel Masonry in ritual and structure but are explicitly directed to other entities. An obvious example is the Fraternitas Saturni that is directed to the logos of Saturn. They operate with "pitiless love". The logos of Saturn strongly influenced the Nazis. archive.is/HYD1 |
|
|
|
Post by LorrB on May 17, 2013 10:00:22 GMT 9.5
Great point! I can appreciate now why invoking the GAOTU is so advantageous (after 20 years  ) |
|
|
|
Post by stepnwolf on May 17, 2013 23:28:10 GMT 9.5
>Might we ask the same question about masonic lodges? There are also lodges that parallel Masonry in ritual and structure but are explicitly directed to other entities. An obvious example is the Fraternitas Saturni that is directed to the logos of Saturn. They operate with "pitiless love". The logos of Saturn strongly influenced the Nazis. archive.is/HYD1Fascinating reading, Paul, concerning the Fraternitas Saturni. The Collectanea of the Grand College of Rites USA has for many years collected the rituals of masonic and pseudo-masonic orders that no longer work in the USA. (see www.grandcollegeofrites.org/collectanea.php) When I was a member of an old line lodge I started acquiring numbers of the Collectanea, some of which contained rituals that resembled the FS. Recent efforts to purchase numbers in the series now has proved disappointing. Some used copies cost close to $100. |
|
|
|
Post by paul on May 18, 2013 5:37:10 GMT 9.5
|
|
|
|
Post by stewartedwards on May 18, 2013 17:07:24 GMT 9.5
Very good book. Funnily enough I have just sold my copy this morning. It is well worth reading.
|
|
|
|
Post by paul on May 18, 2013 17:11:25 GMT 9.5
One door opens, one door closes
|
|
|
|
Post by stepnwolf on May 18, 2013 22:50:51 GMT 9.5
That raises the question as to how do charismatic churches know what comes when they call. There are certainly plenty of individual dark churches - but do they know that they are dark? Might we ask the same question about masonic lodges? As far as I can see there is no telling what may come through before the fact, so to speak. I imagine a great deal depends on the invocator, who will color the invocation with his own personality. The L. or church assembly certainly helps shape the form, but a strong and powerful leader will mould the shape to his own purposes. To some extend can't we recognize what comes through after the fact? If there is rancor among the Brn, if the results are not positive and uplifting, then we should certainly be suspicious. I am beginning to feel that invocations of the names will not guarantee positive results. So much depends on the character of church or Lodge members. |
|
|
|
Post by paul on May 19, 2013 6:02:31 GMT 9.5
>I am beginning to feel that invocations of the names will not guarantee positive results. So much depends on the character of church or Lodge members.
Certainly in Masonry there is considerable trouble taken:
- to screen candidates
- to check that all the brethren present are genuine
- to instruct the brethren not to enter a lodge if there is a brother with whom they are at variance
- to tyle the lodge both outside and in.
These precautions might suggest that the quality of the brethren is critical to the working.
|
|
)