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Death
Oct 9, 2011 0:18:50 GMT 9.5
Post by tamrin on Oct 9, 2011 0:18:50 GMT 9.5
My take on death is premised on there being but one life, of which we are all expressions. As the leaf on the vine will die, another will take its place in the following season. The first leaf is dead and, as a leaf, it has no direct connection with the subsequent leaf. However, each leaf arose from its source and partook of the nature of the vine: It is the vine itself that provides the connection. The "higher self" that survives death is the vine, which provides the connection between one leaf and the next. Indeed, some properties acquired by the first leaf may have been learnt by the vine which, in turn, may have recalled them when giving rise to the subsequent leaf. As individuals, we can transcend our "selves" and glory in being expressions of the one life (we may even recall the previous leaf). At this level we can share in various levels and lines of collective consciousness and collective memories, giving a mistaken sense of our present, individual selves having lived before. However, when 'I' die, that's it, I'm dead, but life goes on. And, with that guerdon, I am content.
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Death
Oct 9, 2011 13:13:40 GMT 9.5
Post by acrogers on Oct 9, 2011 13:13:40 GMT 9.5
I agree, there must be one life, one primal will, and ultimately one consciousness existing in all things. If life is then eternal, then death must be merely a transition, though as to what is obviously a matter of different understandings. I like the image of the vine, which has one life of which the leaves and branches are a part but which, when their natural life cycle comes to an end have no life independently of the vine.
This seems to tie in perfectly with the idea of reincarnation being the continuation of the higher self. The Dalai Lama is on record as saying that reincarnation concerns only the highest level of the self, i.e. the Monad, and cerntainly not the physical body. After all, who'd want to return to that after a lifetime, I cerntainly wouldn't.
I think we also need to consider that time is cyclic, not linear. Surely that would help us to see our lives and deaths in a new light.
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Death
Oct 9, 2011 13:35:35 GMT 9.5
Post by tamrin on Oct 9, 2011 13:35:35 GMT 9.5
Well said.
Spirit is eternal and our real Self is Spririt: There is but One Spirit.
I had mentioned earlier that, in some systems, the first step on the path of wisdom is rational discrimination (Viveka) between the real and the unreal: The next is dispassion (Vairagya), including non-attachment to superficialities, such as our individual personas.
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Death
Oct 15, 2011 10:14:58 GMT 9.5
Post by acrogers on Oct 15, 2011 10:14:58 GMT 9.5
What I think most of us would agree on then is, that since life is eternal then death is merely transition from one state of being to another.
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Death
Oct 15, 2011 11:19:39 GMT 9.5
Post by paul on Oct 15, 2011 11:19:39 GMT 9.5
What I think most of us would agree on then is, that since life is eternal then death is merely transition from one state of being to another. Generally that is true. Still there may be exceptions: Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
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Death
Oct 15, 2011 12:37:29 GMT 9.5
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2011 12:37:29 GMT 9.5
Generally that is true. till there may be exceptions: You are being orthodox There are no exceptions if it is the life of the One Spirit which survives our individual deaths.
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Death
Oct 15, 2011 13:10:56 GMT 9.5
Post by paul on Oct 15, 2011 13:10:56 GMT 9.5
...There are no exceptions if it is the life of the One Spirit which survives our individual deaths. Quite so - if it is the One Spirit that survives. On the other hand the human soul while immortal (not subject to death) does have a beginning and an end - as do all created entities. Hence the relevance in the threat in Revelation 22:19
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Death
Oct 15, 2011 14:50:30 GMT 9.5
Post by tamrin on Oct 15, 2011 14:50:30 GMT 9.5
...the human soul while immortal (not subject to death) does have a beginning and an end... Your idea of "immortal" is peculiarly orthodox and idiosyncratic at the same time!? As exhaustively stated, my personal understanding of death is that it marks the end of our persona, and only our highest self, the One Spirit, which is common to every sentient being, survives. Albeit, there is the possibility of some traits being "recalled" from the memory of the mind which encompasses our present state. You may quote orthodox and unorthodox scriptures and treatises all you like in support of your wishful thinking: For me, "There is no religion higher than Truth," as revealed by reason.
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Death
Oct 15, 2011 16:13:07 GMT 9.5
Post by paul on Oct 15, 2011 16:13:07 GMT 9.5
....my personal understanding of death is that it marks the end of our persona.....Albeit, there is the possibility of some traits being "recalled" from the memory of the mind...... So what is it that recalls some traits if the persona is destroyed? Does the mind exist outside the persona? Is that what passes for memory of past incarnations?
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Death
Oct 15, 2011 16:18:48 GMT 9.5
Post by paul on Oct 15, 2011 16:18:48 GMT 9.5
Rev 20:13 and they were judged, each one according to their works; 14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this is the second death; 15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
So there is a second death and if the name has been removed from the scroll of life (as threatened in Rev 19) then not only the physical body dies but also some other part.
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Death
Oct 15, 2011 21:02:43 GMT 9.5
Post by tamrin on Oct 15, 2011 21:02:43 GMT 9.5
So what is it that recalls some traits if the persona is destroyed? Once again: The mind encompassing the system of which we are an organic part.
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Death
Oct 16, 2011 6:46:22 GMT 9.5
Post by paul on Oct 16, 2011 6:46:22 GMT 9.5
So the aspects that survive the first death are:
- the mind - the soul - ??
Depending upon the status of the human, much of the persona must therefore be available for reincarnation.
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Death
Oct 16, 2011 8:47:25 GMT 9.5
Post by tamrin on Oct 16, 2011 8:47:25 GMT 9.5
So the aspects that survive the first death are: - the mind - the soul - ?? Depending upon the status of the human, much of the persona must therefore be available for reincarnation. This has all been exhaustively explained previously (perhaps you are worn out from your inter-galactic travels). Please try to pay attention this time. NOTHING except a memory of us survives the death of that which constitutes our present system. The death of our soul means the death of our body and visa versa. However, the system of which we were a part remains (and the One Spirit, of which all sub-systems are parts, is immortal). Being an organic system the system of which we were a part is encompassed by a soul (of which, in states of transcendence, we are aware). A soul is necessarily mindful (i.e., it has a mind or at least a means of mentation) and an aspect of mind is memory. It is at this level that there remains a memory of what we were and of our traits, which may or may not be subsequently recalled.
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Death
Oct 16, 2011 8:59:41 GMT 9.5
Post by paul on Oct 16, 2011 8:59:41 GMT 9.5
...The death of our soul means the death of our body and visa versa. ..... A soul is necessarily mindful....there remains a memory ... which may or may not be subsequently recalled. Thus the death of the body means the death of the soul but the memory lives on in the mind which does not die. It seems then that the soul is mortal but the mind is immortal. This seems a pretty dismal future - being doomed to remember every misdeed. So how can we test the proposition that the soul is mortal but the mind is not?
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Death
Oct 16, 2011 9:59:43 GMT 9.5
Post by tamrin on Oct 16, 2011 9:59:43 GMT 9.5
Thus the death of the body means the death of the soul but the memory lives on in the mind which does not die.
It seems then that the soul is mortal but the mind is immortal. NO! Please wake up and pay attention to what is written. OUR mind is not immortal (it is only an aspect of our mortal soul): It is the soul (and its mind) of the system of which we are presently a part which survives our death (just as we are likely to survive the death of our hypothetical, transcendental liver cell) and preserves our memory (as we would consciously, or more likely subconsciously, retain a memory of that cell).
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Death
Oct 16, 2011 10:26:31 GMT 9.5
Post by tamrin on Oct 16, 2011 10:26:31 GMT 9.5
This seems a pretty dismal future - being doomed to remember every misdeed. Dismal? I guess it depends on one's conduct. At least it will not be us doing the remembering.
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Death
Oct 16, 2011 10:33:19 GMT 9.5
Post by acrogers on Oct 16, 2011 10:33:19 GMT 9.5
Okay, the mind of the world soul survives wherever it has manifested throughout the history of the Universe. We are small parts of that soul/mind. If our parts decide to return to this earth in other bodies--once we have learnt our lessons that is surely a matter of choice. It Tamrin is right it cannot make any difference to the nature and reality of life as it is constituted, or to the purpose of death. We will continue to manifest life. (See the Death card in the Tarot deck.)
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Death
Oct 16, 2011 11:02:54 GMT 9.5
Post by paul on Oct 16, 2011 11:02:54 GMT 9.5
....our mortal soul): It is the soul ... of the system of which we are presently a part which survives our death... So there two souls from the human perspective - one that dies with the physical body and one (oversoul?) that belongs to some greater level of existence of which the human is a temporary offshoot? I suppose then that the religious concept of saving one's soul is not really relevant since the soul that dies at death is disposable.
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Death
Oct 17, 2011 9:42:13 GMT 9.5
Post by LorrB on Oct 17, 2011 9:42:13 GMT 9.5
(Edgar) Cayce described the true nature between humanity and God. Cayce revealed that humans actually have three different dimensions of human awareness: the conscious mind (personality, the subconscious mind (soul) and the superconscious mind (spirit). An important goal in everyone's life is to awaken our superconscious mind to attain what Cayce called at-one-ment with God. The JW, the SW and the Master, imo.
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Death
Oct 17, 2011 9:47:31 GMT 9.5
Post by LorrB on Oct 17, 2011 9:47:31 GMT 9.5
Chapter 19-22: Rejoicing in heaven, the Devil thrown into a bottomless pit, a new heaven and new Earth
Literal: John now sees much rejoicing in heaven and the appearance of Christ. An angel casts the devil into a bottomless pit for one thousand years. John then sees a new heaven and a new Earth come into being.
Interpretation What was the final salvation of the bodily, mental, and spiritual forces described within John, now are shown to take place in collective humanity. When humanity recognizes the divinity within them as the controlling force in the world, and turns away from their own selfish pattern of living for self alone, the old pattern disappears and the Christ pattern emerges. John is told that the merging of the evolved self with the divine superconscious, which has taken place in John, must also take place in all humanity (Rev. 19:7). The fulfilled pattern of evolved humanity, the Christ (i.e., superconscious mind), is now shown in a position of power (the so-called "second coming of Christ").
Now the archetype of humanity's continual rebellions, the self-willed intellect symbolized as the "devil", is confined for a time in the collective unconscious mind. During this period of one thousand years (the 1000 year reign of Christ), only the evolved souls will be permitted to incarnate the Earth (Rev. 20:4). At the end of this period, the remaining souls begin to incarnate, bringing with them their unsatisfied ambitions and desires. This, of course, brings about the former conditions of imbalance (wars and plagues). These conditions, all man-made, are now themselves eliminated and all mental forms and patterns not formed by divine will are purged (Rev. 20:14). The "new heaven and new Earth" John sees is humanity's perfected state of consciousness and regenerated body. The human mind at this point is now one with the divine in the perfection of control and is free from outside limitations. The human conscious mind merges with the superconscious mind. John states that if anyone adds or takes away from this book, that person will experience the plagues in this book. The book is the body, which is the vehicle for human experience in the world. Through it, the lessons of the soul are learned. There can be no shortcuts or meanderings without dire consequences to the body near-death.com/experiences/cayce10.html(one of my favourite links on the Internet)
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