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Post by LorrB on Oct 28, 2010 12:04:48 GMT 9.5
I am even more convinced than ever that Jesus is NOT the central figure, even though the artist wanted the congregation to believe it was.
I was actually searching to see if anyone else but me could see the large heart shape Da Vinci put into the painting, apparently not. But I did discover that he used to carve eyes and paint leaves in the shape of hearts. Hmnnn....
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Post by LorrB on Oct 28, 2010 12:24:11 GMT 9.5
And while we are examining DaVinci's paintings.. going back to one you posted Paul.... What about the Z shaped rocks formation up top... would that stand for Zechariah, John the Baptist's father? Zechariah was the father of John the Baptist. The coming of a Savior was first prophesized to Eve in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 3:14&15 Jews for generations since that time had looked forward to the promise of the Christ. Zechariah had the honor of being the first person to know that God’s plan was finally being put into motion.
As his story begins in Luke chapter 1, Zechariah was on duty, offering incense in the temple while worshipers prayed outside. He had spent his life in this service, but this time, when he approached the altar, the angel Gabriel appeared beside the altar of incense. Gabriel said to him that in answer to his prayer, his wife would bear him a son, whom he would name John. The angel continued to say that the boy would be a delight to Zechariah. He would be filled with the Holy Spirit from birth and many would rejoice because of him. Zechariah’s child would serve in the spirit and power of Elijah and would prepare the way for the Lord.
www.bellaonline.com/articles/art43247.asp
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Post by paul on Oct 28, 2010 12:31:19 GMT 9.5
There is arguably a reversed Z in the top right. The significance of John the Baptist is perhaps concealed by the current version of the New Testament. John baptised his followers and Jesus did not. Was Jesus therefore a follower of John? Here is another version of the above painting. Note that the identification of Jesus and John is unclear in this one. The woman in red is pointing very clearly (with the John gesture) at the boy on the left. Is the woman in red Mary? In the later version (above) the woman on the right has angel wings. The phallus is much clearer in the middle top of this version - with appropriate arrangement of vegetation right at the top
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Post by LorrB on Oct 28, 2010 13:38:06 GMT 9.5
I just did an experiment with the Last Supper. With the heart shape in the original painting (1st page of this thread) there are two very distinct parts of the heart which are clearly discernible. I printed the image and followed the natural lines, folded the image in half, cut off the externals and I was left with: three hands making the signs similar to those seen in the painting of the Madonna of the Rocks. The two full figures left in the heart shape are the central figure and the figure to his right. Convention says they are Jesus and John. My gut feeling is that DaVinci was portraying the two St Johns of masonic (and Knights Templar) fame. St Mary Magdalene having been conveniently 'made male so she too could enter the kingdom of heaven' as per the text from Nag Hammadi. The figure at the end of the table does look like a knight with DaVinci talking to him. Da Vinci is known to have painted himself into the painting.
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Post by LorrB on Nov 29, 2010 11:52:07 GMT 9.5
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Post by LorrB on Nov 29, 2010 11:54:05 GMT 9.5
In Muslim tradition, Khidr is widely known as the guide of Moses and Alexander the Great, a wali (saint), a prophet, and one of four immortals along with Enoch (Idris), Jesus, and Elijah. Murshid Sam described Khidr and Elijah as “the two ‘guardian spirits’ of this world and the next” (Lewis 1986: 298). Like the Qur’an’s description of Khidr’s gift of mercy (rahma) and direct inner knowing (‘ilm al-ladunni), Elijah heard God’s intimate “still small voice” (I Kg. 19:12). Murshid also wrote that, according to Qabbalah, Khidr is Jethro — the biblical father-in-law of Moses who taught Moses the Name of God in the form “I am that I am” (Lewis 1975: 207 …..
Khidr brings a gift that Sufis realize as the treasure of gnosis within the heart. Some Sufis teach that we will all meet Khidr at least once in our lifetime, that you will recognize him when you shake hands with a white bearded man with no bone in his thumb. In the lore of Sufi saints, Khidr sometimes bestows a mantle (khirqa), a primary symbol of Sufi initiation.
thesoundjournal.org/archives-2/february-2010-issue/al-khidr-the-green-and-artistic-spiritual-guide-excerpt/
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Post by LorrB on Nov 29, 2010 11:56:02 GMT 9.5
Did you know that there are 103 Green Man heads in Rosslyn Chapel? Did you know that supposedly the head of The Baptist is buried somewhere below the Apprentice Column (although I would not be surprised to find it within the column-keeping the Osiris (another Green Man) legend in mind)
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Post by paul on Nov 29, 2010 12:49:54 GMT 9.5
>Khidr sometimes bestows a mantle (khirqa), a primary symbol of Sufi initiation.
This is known in Christian contexts as "the wedding garment" without which there is no welcome at the feast.
>keeping the Osiris (another Green Man) legend in mind
The greenness of Osiris seems to me to be a later theological attribution. In practice it is likely that Osiris is black but black is too often lower caste so it is necessary to disguise his colour
Similarly Krishna is depicted as blue when he was probably black.
The green man of Rosslyn and of course various English pubs is rather a type of etheric entity that inhabits forests and comes close to humans on occasion. Anyone with good etheric vision should be able to see them. I once pointed out to a workshop group a green man that I could sense in the trees next to a busy parkland and one of the participants actually physically saw him(?) while the others had some sense of his presence
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Post by Henka on Nov 29, 2010 13:47:41 GMT 9.5
The greenness of Osiris seems to me to be a later theological attribution. In practice it is likely that Osiris is black but black is too often lower caste so it is necessary to disguise his colour No, no, no! Osiris is green because he is sybolic of spring vegetation. He was never depicted as black, nor were "lower castes" considered to be black in Khemetian iconography. Remember that statuary depicts the various Neteru as black in their animal aspects - I have such images myself that I used as altar statuary. Pretty sure Krishna is blue. Vaj can weigh in on this, she's into the Hindu stuff. The Green Man figures depict a stylized vision of Landvettir, Land-Wights or Elves. Of course you can see them if you know what to look for. Anyone can.
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Post by paul on Nov 29, 2010 14:02:07 GMT 9.5
No, no, no! Osiris is green because he is sybolic of spring vegetation. That is certainly the intent, but the question is: is the physical Osiris actually green? Osiris is occasionally depicted covered in green scales - indicating either a serpent or amphibian nature rather than a vegetative nature. I also wonder if there was only one set of gods so that the Ra of Egypt is the same entity as the Ra of the New Zealand Maori. If so, are Osiris and Krishna just local names for the same entity?
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 5, 2010 12:12:26 GMT 9.5
The name "Krishna" means 'the Dark One". It is believed that the Gods have BLUE blood, not red, hence the term "blue blooded' used to denote royalty, indicating 'divine antecedents", and quite likely the source of the artistic convention of the 'blueness' of Krishna. in pictures!
Osiris is always depicted in the Hall of Judgement as dark GREEN. However, in the Egyptian mystery plays, the big revelation was "Osiris is a BLACK GOD.". Among the Sufis, "black' is the colour of WISDOM ("fehm") and also, don't forget, Egypt was known as "Khem", the BLACK LAND, which is where we get the word KHEM-istry and al-KHEM-y: the "BLACK" ART.
I have heard many stories from people about having met a "green man" in dreams. I will say that this is true in India for sure; those who have "met" the Divine often describe Him as being GREEN.
For instance, When the great avatar Ramakrishna's father was en route on a pilgrimage to Puri, the abode of the Deity Jagganath ("Lord of the World"; sometimes rendered as 'juggernaut", referring to the giant chariot the image rides on when taken out for public worship) , he fell asleep near a field.
He had a vast vision of his ancestors , and all the Gods, all bowing and worshiping a Divine Child who was BRIGHT GREEN. The Child descended from His throne, approached Ramakrishna's father, and told him that He intended to descend to earth and would be born into his family as his Son. Horrified, he begged the Child not to do so, saying "I am a poor man; I cannot serve You as You should be served , Lord!"
The Divine Child cheerfully dismissed all such objections, saying "I will accept whatever you give Me to eat!".
At the very same time, his wife, back in the village, was having a vision of Divine waves of light coming off the Shiva Lingam in the nearby temple; so intense was the vision that she actually fainted and had to be helped home by the neighbours. It was from that moment that she knew she was pregnant...and the child that was born to them nine months later was the great Ramakrishna! Also, much later in his life, Ramakrishna desired to explore and assimilate the doctrines of non-Hindu religions. He STARTED with Islam, and was instructed and initiated by a SUFI, Govinda Roy.
It is interesting to note that the Indian Name of God, "Hari", means "GREEN".
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Post by paul on Dec 5, 2010 12:23:10 GMT 9.5
I wonder how hard it is to separate the theological reinterpretation from the original beings and events. Similarly for example, St Augustine was quite happy with Jesus the Prophet as recounted by Origen. Later Jesus was determined as divine and Origen was changed from a father of the Church to become a heretic. Have similar changes occurred with Osiris and Krishna? >Among the Sufis, "black' is the colour of WISDOM ("fehm") Of course there is also Al Khidr (the green one) who is sometimes considered to be a prophet. "In western Asia, Moslem or Hindu symbolic art shows the Saint, Al Khizr, dressed in a green coat being carried on top of the water by a fish which conveys him over the river of life. " khidr.org/gunawardhana.htmHere then we have the green colour and the scales that we find with Osiris. Isis also has a fish tail on occasion and may be depicted as a serpent. This reminds me of Boulay who considers that the gods did not wish to be depicted because they were not particularly humanoid www.apollonius.net/boulay00e.html
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 6, 2010 4:33:26 GMT 9.5
Green is indeed a sacred colour among the Muslims..the Sufis traditionally wear blue and gold patchwork robes, and , of course GREEN is a combination of BLUE and YELLOW. it is an odd fact that gold imparts a GREEN tint to glass; I once had a clear glass vase painted with gold, and when you looked into the vase, the parts painted gold showed green when light passed through them. There is a line in Liber Al: "The blue and gold are seen of the seeing", which would be an immediate hint to anyone of the Sufi persuasion to pay close attention to the text; Sufis delight in word-play and say that a text may have as many as SEVEN layers of meaning, depending on how it is read, and by who! It's true; it is quite astonishing to experience this; some meanings may even be the OPPOSITE of what is nominally being said, thus what appears to be a purely secular or jocular text could very well have a 'sacred" meaning hidden within it, only visible to "insiders! Great way to "slip by" writings that would be condemned by the laity as 'heresy"!
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 6, 2010 4:41:11 GMT 9.5
The good thing about the Gods appearing as "non-human" is that one cannot mistake them for HUMANS, say, in visions and such. If one is a vivid dreamer, it can be difficult later on to recall if the conversation I had in a dream with a person actually took place in the material plane, but if the dream conversation was with the elephant-headed Ganesh, then I can hardly mix up the memory of that conversation with one I might have had with a dream of a "conventional" humanoid figure!
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Post by LorrB on Dec 13, 2010 12:01:36 GMT 9.5
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Post by paul on Dec 13, 2010 12:33:07 GMT 9.5
if the dream conversation was with the elephant-headed Ganesh, then I can hardly mix up the memory of that .......with ..... humanoid figure! If I met Ganesh I would prefer to see him as he sees himself rather than in the traditional elephant depiction
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Post by LorrB on Feb 1, 2011 12:36:35 GMT 9.5
How about this then... In Search of the Birth of Jesus by Paul William Roberts, published in 1995. This is a log of the author’s travels throughout Iraq, Iran, and Syria tracking local legends regarding the magi who supposedly attended the birth of Jesus. In the process he encountered a group[ of Mandaeans: a Gnostic Johannite sect (that is, followers of John the Baptist). They told him that all Mandaeans believe that not only was Judas Thomas Jesus’ twin, but that it was this Judas who was crucified in Jesus’ place. Furthermore, they believe that Jesus afterwards took on the identity of his brother, calling himself Thomas, and that he was the true author of The Gospel of Thomas, as well as supposedly The Gospel of John. The travels throughout the East that have been attributed to Thomas were accomplished by Jesus as well
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Post by LorrB on Feb 2, 2011 7:39:49 GMT 9.5
... a thought flashed into my head last night on this subject. The bible tells us that Judas voluntarily hung himself from a tree..... !
Maybe the kiss of betrayal was rather one last kiss from a beloved Bro ?
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Post by paul on Feb 2, 2011 7:43:22 GMT 9.5
I would be cautious about a too literal reading of any of the NT. For example, it is hard to find historical support for much of the NT.
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Post by LorrB on Feb 2, 2011 8:56:19 GMT 9.5
True. But with this painting we are only really seeing a little of what Leonardo DaVinci might have believed.
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