The Two St Johns

[LorrB]

From the Gospel of Thomas
[Saying probably added to the original collection at a later date:]

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

Has anyone other than me wondered if John the Evangelist may have been Mary disguised? I know this is a bit eye boggling but I am asking the question seriously.

Below is a collection of data which makes me wonder about this topic.

The author of the Gospel of John never identifies himself by name, but the text identifies him as the "Beloved Disciple" repeatedly referred to in the Gospel.

John the Evangelist was one of Christ's original twelve apostles; the only one to live into old age; and not killed for his faith.

Peter, James, and he were the only witnesses of the raising of Jairus's daughter (Mark 5:37), of the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1), and of the Agony in Gethsemane (Matthew 26:37). Only he and Peter were sent into the city to make the preparation for the Last Supper (Luke 22:8).

Jesus entrusted St John to look after his mother after his death.

St John is usually depicted wearing red garments, as was Mary Magdalene

St John is also usually depicted with decidedly refined, woman type features, see link below and Da Vinci’s painting of The Last Supper.

St John the Evangelist, with St John the Baptist, is considered a patron saint by the fraternal society of Free and Accepted Masons (better known as the Freemasons).[18] The festival of St John on 27 December is the beginning of the lodge year in many jurisdictions of that fraternity, and is marked by special commemorations.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Evangelist

Is it a coincidence that Freemasonry has the two St Johns as patrons and the Knights Templar have St John the Baptist and Mary Magdalene?

Mary Magdalene, was a widow after the crucifixion.

[paul]

Some consider that "the one whom Jesus loved" is the same as "the beloved disciple"

If so, John was the first raising of the new dispensation - hence a patron of Masonry

[Henka]

We are assuming these are actual historical figures, rather than allegorical representations.

[LorrB]

Yes, that is an interesting question in itself. But even if allegorical, it remains an interesting thought.

(As for Simon Peter, next time I see him I'm gonna ...... MCP, mutter, mutter... men..! You can see where I am coming from when I try to get male masons reconsider their attitudes initiating women - the church's narrow, unbalanced views on women and their roles might well bring it down eventually, because it has tended to attract unbalanced males)

[LorrB]

For those that might be interested in this subject - go to the Last Supper - Hidden Meaning thread. Leonardo DaVinci might have held similar opinions. It has certainly renewed my interest in his painting.

With all the Mary Magdalene married to Jesus material around, it amazes me that up to this recent time it had never occurred to me the possibility of Mary being John. Now it is so obvious (to me) that I am confounded.

IF (big if) one of Freemasonry's Johns was actually the widow of Jesus, and if that widow did carry on His true ministry (not the one usurped by Paul) then might that mean that Freemasonry is more Christian than acknowledged? Keep in mind that the teachings that Jesus gave to his disciples in private, seem to be what all the great religions teach in private -the secrets of the invisible worlds. So when I say Christian I am not being restrictively religious.

Jesus did call Simon, the stone... and sons of the Widow are also called stones, rough ones though they be.

Food for thought.

[coach]

114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

2 Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. 3For every female who makes herself male will enter the domain of Heaven." -- The Gospel According to Thomas

[paul]

Sept 30, 2010 21:08:40 GMT 9.5 @coach said:

For every female who makes herself male will enter the domain of Heaven

So what would we see as a female makes herself male?

[LorrB]

Me, woman, female ... becoming a true Brother in Freemasonry.

Fatherhood of God, Sonship of Mankind

;D

[paul]

I am not sure that the writer of the Gospel of Thomas really intended that all women should become Freemasons.

Given that males and females are co-equal within Creation (at least to my vision), there must be another meaning.

And presumably males need to become females to enter the Kingdom of Heaven

[LorrB]

Sometimes I think we may put meaning into the words of Jesus and others than was meant at the time.

One example that springs to mind "Suffer little children to come unto me"... the translation lead many to believe that suffering is the lot of man, even little children are meant to suffer. Rubbish, I say.

Suffer also means allow... ie "Allow the little children to come and talk to me..

Peter says women aren't worthy enough to live.. maybe Jesus was gently rebuking him while at the same time encouraging the women listening that they should not just take what was being handed out to them, they might become more active in changing what needs to be changed.

Esoterically though, it could be pointing out that the Balance must be found. They are two halves of the one coin.

So
... we have women directed to become male
... and men directed to become as little children (who are cared for by women)

so they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sounds like a pretty circuitous route to me.

[LorrB]

Oct 1, 2010 9:18:31 GMT 9.5 paul said:

I am not sure that the writer of the Gospel of Thomas really intended that all women should become Freemasons.

You don't come from Broken Hill do you ;D
I was joshing.

[paul]

"little children" is thought be some to be code.

Just as "under the fig tree" is code.

And of course "the dead" may be code for those not yet raised

[paul]

>I was joshing.

And I was ensuring the question was not lost

[LorrB]

Can you enlighten us on the codes?

What about the codes in Freemasonry. One springs instantly to mind as I had reason to think of it just two days ago. A friend of ours 'died' four times during a heart attack. He said that when all went 'quiet' (died) he saw hands reaching down to him for him to to take hold of. I thought of th following words:

It is said to have taken its rise either from the Degree having been established there by Hiram Abiff before he went to Jerusalem, or from the timber for the Temple, felled and prepared in the forest of Lebanon, being carried on floats by sea to that place, where masonic tradition informs us that the shore was so steep that it was impossible to ascend from the rafts without assistance form above, which was rendered by persons stationed there for that purpose

[paul]

Lebanon gives another code: "Cedars from Lebanon" may well be a reference to upright initiates from Lebanon mystery temples.

""Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." "How do you know me?" Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.""

The Buddha was enlightened under a fig tree. A particular species - ficus religiosa - is notorious for inducing mystical experiences. (Actually the largest ficus religiosa in Australia is in the Brisbane city botanic gardens - a popular shade tree for those eating lunch)

Thus Jesus was probably referring to seeing Nathanael receiving initiatory instruction.

"Little children" is probably code for the uninitiated - not yet adult in things of the spirit.

[LorrB]

Oct 1, 2010 7:29:34 GMT 9.5 paul said:

Sept 30, 2010 21:08:40 GMT 9.5 @coach said:

For every female who makes herself male will enter the domain of Heaven

So what would we see as a female makes herself male?

I was just re-reading what petergower recently posted in the article section of the forum re sex ...

In the Western tradition the same idea is expressed by alchemy, the main task of which is not to transform lead into gold, but to activate a psychological process of selfknowledge: Know thyself.

Each human being has his own inner polarity, namely animus (masculine)
and anima (feminine). Through a longlasting inner work – in Masonic terms: to polish one's rough ashlar – man unifies the polarities, thus restoring oneness. The union of opposites is known in hermetic philosophy as mysterium coniunctionis (mystic union) or coniunctio oppositorum (union of opposites). Both terms describe the climax of opus magnum (great work). Through the continuous fusion of opposites, spirit and matter are transmuted on an ever higher level. Finally, the creation of lapis philosophorum, the philosophers' stone, is achieved.

Do make sure you access the whole paper. Very worthwhile reading.

[paul]

I have read the paper and it does cover some interesting ground.

Still I wonder what practicalities are for a female becoming a male.

And should a male become female? Or is the symbolism not human?

[LorrB]

Sometimes you get my head in a tizz (no comments) Paul.

We could talk about particulars, but your experience goes beyond mine, so I am left floundering.

With Gio's paper it was the concept which attracted me. What works on one level probably works on another. Atoms-solar systems-galaxies etc. With the male/female thing, wouldn't it be a case for things in general to reach an 'androgynous' state.

[paul]

>wouldn't it be a case for things in general to reach an androgynous state.

If that were the case why would females need to become male?

The key is perhaps in the multiple intelligences within a human - how each of the chakra entities needs to be able to take on whatever polarity is relevant to the physical or metaphysical context.

Thus being stuck in one polarity indicates further development is required

[Henka]

Oct 1, 2010 9:18:31 GMT 9.5 paul said:

I am not sure that the writer of the Gospel of Thomas really intended that all women should become Freemasons.

I'm pretty sure that not what he meant.

I think Jeebus was being a bit sarcastic with ol' Peter (Petras=rock=dense - you will notice in the Gonostic Gospels that Mary understood what Jesus was on about, while the male disciples were drawing a blank).