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Post by LorrB on Mar 21, 2014 7:12:56 GMT 9.5
... Maybe they are not spoken of generally because of this simple oversight or ignorance of there being more to Life than meets the eye. So you say about us.
It is common for co-masons to assert and infer that they have esoteric understanding and male craft freemasons are ignorant or lacking in esoteric understanding.
So tell me why a male craft freemason should remain in your company on this co-masonic esoteric forum? No offence meant crossbow. Ignorance is meant purely in the 'not knowing' or 'having little knowledge of' sense of the word. I am quite ignorant about a lot of things in life. The finer points of music spring to mind, I am reliably told that I am tone deaf -lol. Even the cat left the room when I was singing once. My husband is a male craftsman and so I know quite a few very fine masons in both orders who do not look further than the written words of their ritual books. Symbolism and allegory mean little to them. They are happy and relaxed in the friendship of their masonic family circle. And that is good! But Freemasonry says itself it takes good men and makes them better, how can it do this without offering the Brn something that will make them stronger and wiser and even more beautiful people? "more to life than meets the eye" - scientists are discovering new, exciting (and sometimes frightening) things about our world every day. Fellowcraft are exhorted to seek after the secrets and mysteries of science and nature. How many follow this simple instruction? Quite a few in our order ignore it, preferring instead for someone else to tell them what is, 'which ain't necessarily so' as that old song says. We need to seek for that which is lost (from us as individuals). |
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Post by crossbow on Mar 21, 2014 9:04:18 GMT 9.5
So you say about us.
It is common for co-masons to assert and infer that they have esoteric understanding and male craft freemasons are ignorant or lacking in esoteric understanding.
So tell me why a male craft freemason should remain in your company on this co-masonic esoteric forum? 1. No offence meant crossbow. Ignorance is meant purely in the 'not knowing' or 'having little knowledge of' sense of the word. ... 2. But Freemasonry says itself it takes good men and makes them better, how can it do this without offering the Brn something that will make them stronger and wiser and even more beautiful people? ... 1. I did not take offence, LorrB, and I doubt you could offend me, so do not worry about doing so. And I did take the word ignorant in its correct meaning as having little knowledge or understanding. That is shown in my response.
2. "But Freemasonry says itself it takes good men and makes them better, how can it do this without offering the Brn something that will make them stronger and wiser and even more beautiful people?"
You continue to make your same assertions that male craft freemasonry and that us men within it are void of esoteric knowledge, and that we and our freemasonry are lacking in the development of particular virtues.
You and Paul have persisted in making such assertions about us male craft freemasons. And other co-masons, from EAs through to senior levels persist in doing the same, amongst yourselves, within your own circles, directly to us male craft masons, and to non-masons and the general public.
Every internet forum where co-masons frequent, every public fair and convention where co-masons gather, you are heard deriding male craft freemasons and announcing your esoteric supremacy.
You and other co-masons are yet to answer me:
Tell me why a male craft freemason should remain in your company on this co-masonic forum?
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Post by paul on Mar 21, 2014 9:13:57 GMT 9.5
>Tell me why a male craft freemason should remain in your company on this co-masonic forum?
A few years ago at an installation banquet I approached our Grand Master and asked him about spiritual matters in the lodge. He offered to send the Grand Chaplain to speak on such things but I said I was more interested in spiritual work. He then warned me not to speak of such matters in the lodge.
Generally he was correct. Few brethren in my male lodge wished to know about such matters, and it did upset some of the brethren when I spoke of such matters. They either thought I was a bit crazy or they worried that I wanted to introduce religion into the lodge.
There are however a few brethren who observe odd events in the lodge and wish to know more. Of these most are relatively passive observers and only one or two are driven to understand and to experiment.
This forum is intended for those few who wish to know more. By sharing our experiences and seeking new experiences and experiments, we hope to progress in our inner growth and progress in unveiling the Mysteries.
All human brothers of good will are welcome to assist.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 21, 2014 9:27:37 GMT 9.5
Did I say all that? I don't think so because I don't believe it to be so.
But I see from the above that it is not me that you have in your sights, it is co-freemasonry in general - ie we admit women as well as men. I view Freemasonry as universal. Fatherhood of God, sonship of Mankind.
If you have not visited our library you would be unaware that most books there were written by male craft masons. Wilmshurst is one of my favorites.
This is a free an open forum you don't have to visit if you don't want to. Pity, because I enjoyed your posts.
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Post by sammy on Mar 21, 2014 9:28:05 GMT 9.5
I have been thinking a lot about this discussion, and others like I have seen where tradition gets in the way of progress. I am thinking though it is necessary for a completely stable structure. A building on Earth or in Heaven will be grand to view, but only because it is able to stand up in order to do so. A foundation is the most important part of a structure, as well as the beginning of it. It is sturdy, stubborn, and stuck solid so it can do its job of structural support. A foundation stays the way it was laid, if it moves its on its own terms. Otherwise we would be pulling the apple from the bottom of the stack, making it all tumble down.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 21, 2014 9:50:44 GMT 9.5
Tradition and progress. Good point Sammy.
Our aim here is to try to describe the workings of the human condition (insomuch as our personal experiences allow us) and in a way that is clear enough for most firsthand seekers to take on board. We also try to understand how the mind works and assist those who would like to trample the king of terrors (death?) beneath his feet, ie to prove the existence of soul and spirit.
Freemasonry does all this.
Seek and ye shall find.
We try to encourage people 'to leave home' and explore all kinds of possibilities. To take the lesser known paths mentioned in R.Arch.
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Post by crossbow on Mar 24, 2014 17:12:24 GMT 9.5
LorrB,
My pointing out to you that your selves and other co-masons frequently deride male craft freemasons as being esoterically lacking, does not indicate that I am against co-masonry or masonry for women, as you accuse and might like me to be.
To the contrary, I have previously stated in the thread The Future of Freemasonry, and I state here again, that I wish to see three streams of freemasonry develop healthily; those three streams being male masonry, female masonry, and co-masonry.
Paul,
Naturally a responsible Grand Master would not discuss spiritual/esoteric matters, and of course such matters are not discussed in lodge, but not for the reasons you prefer to believe. Such examples as you describe are actually examples of good masonic practice, they are not examples of ignorance. I would not respond to such prompting to discuss esoteric matters either. I have stated in a post above why such matters are not discussed in lodge, but you have not accepted it.
Esotericism and religion are the same where they meet. Neither should be discussed in freemasonry, for sensible and beneficial reasons. Outside of lodge such matters may be discretely discussed between consenting masons, but only to the extent immediately required.
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Post by paul on Mar 24, 2014 17:30:59 GMT 9.5
>your selves and other co-masons frequently deride male craft freemasons as being esoterically lacking
Are you willing to point out where I have done this?
>Naturally a responsible Grand Master would not discuss spiritual/esoteric matters
I doubt that is true of all Masonic orders.
>of course such matters are not discussed in lodge
This goes to the heart of the question: What is Masonry?
I recall asking a past head of Co-Masonry in Australia: What is the work of a lodge where all the brethren are well-trained MM and there are no candidates?
She had no answer.
Does the Masonic temple extend from East to West and North to South and from the centre of the Earth to the Heavens merely as a figure of speech?
Or does Masonic ritual operate beyond the lodge room?
If so there must be work for a lodge of MM. Now what can that be?
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Post by paul on Mar 24, 2014 17:38:09 GMT 9.5
I think the issue also relates to Masonry as a system of morality veiled in allegory.
It has never been explained to me why a system of morality must be veiled in allegory.
Why not just tell the brethren what is required? Surely we would have a better chance of practicing an unveiled morality?
So what is the concealed morality? And who concealed it?
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Post by paul on Apr 9, 2014 7:17:56 GMT 9.5
Masonry deals with both morality and mortality.
In ancient Egypt the candidate for raising was taken out of the body into the solar system and on return had no fear of mortality.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 8:31:19 GMT 9.5
I found this section in Freemasonry and the Germanic Tradition by Stephen Edred Flowers and remembered this thread. Page 40 That this idea of dividing one's time into three segments is an ancient Indo-European one is corroborated by the fact that
it is mentioned in ancient Zoroastrian scripture where we read that it is one of the duties of a follower of Zarathustra:
[T]o spend a third of my days and nights in attending the seminary and
consulting the wisdom of holy men, to spend a third of my days and
nights tilling the soil and in making it fruitful, and to spend the
remaining third of my days and nights in eating, rest, and enjoyment.
Taken from Zoroaster
The Greek form (Zōroastris) of the name appears to be based on a phonetic transliteration or semantic substitution of the Avestan zaraϑ- with the Greek zōros (literally "undiluted") and the Avestan -uštra with astron ("star").
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Post by paul on Aug 10, 2014 16:02:40 GMT 9.5
> a third of my days and nights in attending the seminary and consulting the wisdom of holy men
I wonder if that is the original formulation. I do not seem to recall seminaries in the earliest texts. Perhaps originally it was 1/3 spent working for the (house of the) gods, 1/3 making a living, 1/3 in rest.
>a phonetic transliteration or semantic substitution of the Avestan zaraϑ- with the Greek zōros (literally "undiluted")
Greek derivatives always seem a bit tricky to me for use in etymology. Thus Ast becomes Isis while Asar becomes Osiris.
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Post by paul on Aug 10, 2014 16:20:04 GMT 9.5
I don't think we got very far with the symbolism of the 24 inch gauge. It really is an unusual length. Why not a yard or an ell. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EllCould it refer to 24 elders? The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne. Revelation 4:10 Turned into a knotted rope, it can make a right angled triangle, but 12 does that as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 18:57:30 GMT 9.5
> Turned into a knotted rope, it can make a right angled triangle, but 12 does that as well.
So does 300, the length of the Ark in cubits.
I feel that the gauge, divided into thirds encourages the aspirant to consider the threefold nature of things, in terms of measurement in this case.
However, reading the ritual in which Hiram has the gauge passed across his throat, 12, and implicitly 24, does feature strongly.
> Greek derivatives always seem a bit tricky to me for use in etymology. Thus Ast becomes Isis while Asar becomes Osiris.
I agree.
Yet, maybe Ast does does figure into it somehow.
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Post by paul on Aug 10, 2014 19:51:38 GMT 9.5
Ast is the widow (of Egypt) with a son Hr. Hr gives Hiram, Horus, Hermes and Hercules.
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Post by cwhite on Aug 11, 2014 9:24:19 GMT 9.5
Three 8's constitute a full Manifestation.
It would be, three fold infinity.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 17:24:33 GMT 9.5
Interesting, that you should make the leap to 36 from 24, a timely post for me. Thanks. |
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Post by sapientia3579 on Oct 31, 2014 0:39:11 GMT 9.5
IMHO. Symbolically the 24" G. Is an implement that symbolizes our duties God our Neighbor & Mankind. The implication isn't on spending an equal amount of time in service to these three, but in concidering the 3 as being equally important. I see in this tool an allusion to man himself, for instance if the two outer divisions of the gauge be folded upward and inward you have a perfect triangle symbol of the 3-fold nature of man, and in analyzing the number 24, 2+4=6. Man was created on the "6 th day". - these are just a few of my personal thoughts, happy speculating-
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Post by paul on Oct 31, 2014 6:24:19 GMT 9.5
I am unfamiliar with a 24 inch gauge as an instrument of actual measurement but I have just found: "While 24 inch gauges were popular for measuring the depth of fluids in barrels and for printing, the more common length for a ruler in earlier periods was probably the 36" yard, which seems to date to at least the 12th century under Henry I and is probably connected to a German yard, a Saxon yard and something called an ell, which had different lengths depending on the country. For example, the English ell was 45". Thus the 24 inch gauge seems not to have had a use in stone masonry. So why does such a non-working tool appear in Freemasonry? It is just a simple moralising on the 24 hours of the day? Or does this moralising veil something important? How about the 24 Elders in the Book of Revelation? |
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Post by LorrB on Nov 2, 2014 19:44:29 GMT 9.5
Chapter 4-11: Christ Opens the Seals of the Book in Heaven
Literal: John now appears at the throne of God and sees four beasts and twenty-four elders around it. On the throne sits God who has a book with seven seals. John weeps when he learns that no one can open the seals to the book. One of the elders tells John that Christ is able to open the seals. Christ then opens the seals, resulting in many Earth changes. The seventh seal unleashes seven angels who sound seven trumpets which are sounded one by one.Check out what Edgar Cayce has to say about all of Revelations. Just Google it. One of my favourite pieces of all time. www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce10.html |
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