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Post by paul on May 27, 2011 12:17:30 GMT 9.5
Would Pantheism or Panentheism suffice? There are many humans who experience directly the Life Force, the Force, the Breath of God, the Song of Creation and the partaking of that Greater Life by all natural objects and beings. This experience is referred to by academics under constructs such as pantheism but I am not sure those with that experience would use the term. Those who experience the Creator in all things obviously do not need to believe in Deity as they experience aspects of Deity quite consciously. I therefore would consider belief in some form of pantheistic manifestation quite acceptable for a Mason - his/her conceptualisation of the Deity being a personal matter Cheers
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:16:44 GMT 9.5
Would Pantheism or Panentheism suffice? There are many humans who experience directly the Life Force, the Force, the Breath of God, the Song of Creation and the partaking of that Greater Life by all natural objects and beings. This experience is referred to by academics under constructs such as pantheism but I am not sure those with that experience would use the term. Those who experience the Creator in all things obviously do not need to believe in Deity as they experience aspects of Deity quite consciously. I therefore would consider belief in some form of pantheistic manifestation quite acceptable for a Mason - his/her conceptualisation of the Deity being a personal matter Cheers The God of Pan-en-theism does not require our belief - it just IS. So, is belief in God essential to Masonry and, if so, why?
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Post by paul on May 27, 2011 14:21:25 GMT 9.5
So, is belief in God essential to Masonry and, if so, why? It is not so much the belief in God (that is a cultural construct) but the belief (or knowledge) that Life has meaning and that humans are expected to contribute to the outworking of that meaning. But it is easier to ask if candidates believe in God. The answer of course is a matter for the candidate's conscience. A candidate who experienced the greater Reality would already be used to translating that into conventional constructs.
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Post by LorrB on May 27, 2011 14:33:49 GMT 9.5
... the belief (or knowledge) that Life has meaning and that humans are expected to contribute to the outworking of that meaning. Life has meaning... I came hard wired with that belief. I can't remember a time when I did not believe in that. It's just natural.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2011 16:18:02 GMT 9.5
Do you remember when you changed from Believing to Knowing that Life has meaning?
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 16:32:30 GMT 9.5
It is not so much the belief in God (that is a cultural construct) but the belief (or knowledge) that Life has meaning and that humans are expected to contribute to the outworking of that meaning. Secular Humanism essentially affirms, "that Life has meaning and that humans are expected to contribute to the outworking of that meaning."
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 16:50:02 GMT 9.5
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Post by paul on May 27, 2011 17:14:26 GMT 9.5
I think the issue is whether humans consider that the welfare of humans is the highest goal.
If so, then the Masonic concept of the Temple in the Heavens has no meaning - unless we consider that another branch of the human race exists in the heavens.
I was certainly brought up to regard humans as the high point of existence.
These days that is not at all obvious.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 18:37:54 GMT 9.5
I think the issue is whether humans consider that the welfare of humans is the highest goal. The values in vogue among Secular Humanist increasing include ecological ones. The obvious point being, it is as humans that we adopt those values and others, or not. "Man is the measure of all things." - Protagoras
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 18:47:51 GMT 9.5
If so, then the Masonic concept of the Temple in the Heavens has no meaning - unless we consider that another branch of the human race exists in the heavens. The Grand Lodge above has allegorical meaning, as is appropriate for our system of morality.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2011 19:41:56 GMT 9.5
The Grand Lodge above has allegorical meaning,..... The Grand Lodge above is symbolic in the sense that there is no Grand Lodge building made of sandstone, granite and marble in the heavens nor a Board of General Purposes filled with human Masons. It may however be worthwhile attempting unveil the allegory. The EA TB is a good place to start. Try writing a narrative about the TB. Here is a version that is easier to unveil.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 20:03:12 GMT 9.5
I suggest you are reading more into these designs than was ever intended. Tracing boards are relative newcomers to the Craft, preceded by floor cloths and chalk and charcoal designs. They are essentially aide-mémoires for the respective explanatory Charges (the narrative is the Charge). The truths of Freemasonry are veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols. They need to be understood allegorically.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2011 20:46:38 GMT 9.5
.....The truths of Freemasonry are veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols. They need to be understood allegorically. I find that having unveiled the allegory it is possible to enter Masonic science and of course undertake experiments to investigate hypotheses. My suggestion of writing a narrative was to see if hypotheses arose naturally out of the presence and relationship of the visual elements of the EA TB. In my view the FC and MM TBs are much less profound - being accounts of the ritual rather than of the foundations of Masonry.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 7:07:45 GMT 9.5
In my view the FC and MM TBs are much less profound - being accounts of the ritual rather than of the foundations of Masonry. If you set aside your elaborate contruction and look at the EA TB anew, you may find it too is an account of the ritual. As I said earlier, it is an aide-mémoire for the explanation of the symbols of that degree.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 7:16:18 GMT 9.5
The Grand Lodge above has allegorical meaning,..... The Grand Lodge above is symbolic in the sense that there is no Grand Lodge building made of sandstone, granite and marble in the heavens nor a Board of General Purposes filled with human Masons. It may however be worthwhile attempting unveil the allegory. I am glad you agree your masonic "Temple in the Heavens" is symbolic and allegorical, not actual. Freemasonry models the human condition and may be understood as a guide to life, rather than as something separate and unique.
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Post by paul on May 28, 2011 7:43:42 GMT 9.5
Freemasonry models the human condition ..... Agreed. Now all we need to do is understand what is a human and what is the condition that humans endure.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 13:38:53 GMT 9.5
Freemasonry models the human condition ..... Agreed. Now all we need to do is understand what is a human and what is the condition that humans endure. "O' Man, know thyself and you will know the universe and the gods!" - Pythia. To know thyself is perhaps the principle lesson of Freemasonry (the discussion may have gone full circle).
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Post by LorrB on May 30, 2011 10:15:26 GMT 9.5
To know thyself is perhaps the principle lesson of Freemasonry (the discussion may have gone full circle). Well... let's tackle the spiral. How do we define the boundary lines (any one of them) of an individual? This sounds like a good thread theme... one of you guys like to start it?
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Post by mgc on May 30, 2011 11:06:20 GMT 9.5
tough question.. where do i start? or where do i stop? lol what is there to know about ones self? imo there is what u can/cant do and what u should/shouldnt do on various levels of xistance, ranging from the physical to the metaphysical..
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Post by paul on May 8, 2015 10:15:49 GMT 9.5
The topic of why Freemasonry requires a belief in God has risen on other forums and since LDH is looking at changes to the 1st degree obligation, it is perhaps worth continuing (or even rereading) this thread
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