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Post by Henka on Mar 19, 2011 10:51:06 GMT 9.5
...for if you cannot find it within, you will never find it without. "And thou who thinkest to seek Her, know thy seeking and yearning shall avail thee not unless thou knowest the mystery; that if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, then thou wilt never find it without thee. For behold, She has been with thee from the beginning; and She is that which is attained at the end of desire."
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Post by paul on Mar 19, 2011 11:11:42 GMT 9.5
the swimming against the stream. That IS free will. So what is the contribution that Humanity makes to the Divine Plan - other than stopping resisting it?
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Post by Henka on Mar 19, 2011 12:12:25 GMT 9.5
the swimming against the stream. That IS free will. So what is the contribution that Humanity makes to the Divine Plan - other than stopping resisting it? That's assuming anyone knows what the "Divine Plan" is. Until that is clearly spelled out, we are just engaging in mental gymnastics.
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Post by paul on Mar 19, 2011 12:31:25 GMT 9.5
I am not sure that "knowing" is the only relevant faculty.
Some humans are quite sensate
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sallyroberts
Beauty
"Let us serve according to our means and our strength"
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Post by sallyroberts on Mar 19, 2011 20:19:25 GMT 9.5
>We make manifest the Supreme Will in evolution with every notion we conceive I wonder if most humans even recognise the possibility of such a consciousness. And while no doubt we do manifest the Supreme Will in all our actions, surely many resist the Supreme Will - with perhaps little long term effect. What then is the value of the free will that humans speak of - with little scriptural support? To resist it is a choice we have -- the swimming against the stream. That IS free will. I cannot speak for anyone else, but for me the value of that free will has been that I was free to descend into the darkness within, travel by a way I knew not, see darkness made light before me and crooked things made straight. It may be the most paradoxical statement ever, but when I found that Hidden Glory I knew once and for all a belief in a Supreme Being was not a prerequisite, for if you cannot find it within, you will never find it without. "Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain" - Isaiah 40:4
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Post by Stewart Edwards on Mar 19, 2011 20:27:13 GMT 9.5
I cannot speak for anyone else, but for me the value of that free will has been that I was free to descend into the darkness within, travel by a way I knew not, see darkness made light before me and crooked things made straight. It may be the most paradoxical statement ever, Not at all for it is an accurate description of one way of finding the light. Of feeling darkness. Of learning about balance. Of connecting with the "force" (blame Starwars) orthe mist that connects all (yes there really is one) and then onto Gd above. It brings into startling beauty the trinity, of above, around and within. Indeed, after all if you created all then you by definition created those who have yet to find or who will find n different ways or those who have a valuable purpose by not believing. Just because a person maynotbelieve in God does not mean that the divine spark does not reside within. Cora I rarely disagree with you, but I am not sure about this. For there are many paths and many purposes for individuals being here.You have the benefit of knowing Cora, not everyone has reached that stage of knowing, some have yet to find. To think in days gone by Cora, and qute possibly still today in some countries, we would be tortured and murdered for knowing what others believe in.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 21, 2011 8:08:25 GMT 9.5
...for if you cannot find it within, you will never find it without. "And thou who thinkest to seek Her, know thy seeking and yearning shall avail thee not unless thou knowest the mystery; that if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, then thou wilt never find it without thee. For behold, She has been with thee from the beginning; and She is that which is attained at the end of desire." At one time it seems that most thought the earth was flat (because we would all fall off otherwise). The answer was right before the world's eyes all the time. All they had to do was looking up at the sun and the moon. Sometimes we need to seek elsewhere to find 'the directions' to inner worlds and experiences. Masons are directed to travel elsewhere to seek for that which is lost. Maybe we need that experience to be able to identify what we are looking for. I can also see that once you have found what you are looking for within your self, you only then see that it is also in others.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 22, 2011 8:32:13 GMT 9.5
Humour... one of Gods greatest gifts I believe. Good to see you still with us Stewart, I will check out the posting without an account bit. I am new to all this stuff.
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Post by roman on May 21, 2011 14:47:31 GMT 9.5
The short answer would be no, belief is not essential. I say this as I have come to the opinion (as a former Rabbi) that very few of us are actual believers, we just tell ourselves that we are.
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Post by paul on May 21, 2011 16:05:42 GMT 9.5
In any case in HRA we are told that faith disappears when we have sight of God. Hence belief is at best one phase in a process
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Post by LorrB on May 22, 2011 9:36:39 GMT 9.5
The short answer would be no, belief is not essential. I say this as I have come to the opinion (as a former Rabbi) that very few of us are actual believers, we just tell ourselves that we are. You could be right Roman. Just last Thursday I had a serious chat with 'someone upstairs' about sending us some people who might find this forum helpful or interesting. My first thought when I checked in today and saw new people, new posts was "Gosh, someone was listening" Welcome, by the way! We would love to hear lots from you. The more the merrier here, people, questions, answers, ideas...
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Post by roman on May 22, 2011 13:04:13 GMT 9.5
Thank you for the warm welcome Lorraine.
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Post by mgc on May 24, 2011 21:41:29 GMT 9.5
believing something to be true without evidence seems rather naive to me.. i would vote "not essential"..
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Post by paul on May 25, 2011 8:00:04 GMT 9.5
believing something to be true without evidence seems rather naive to me..... This of course raises the question of whether it is possible to move beyond faith to knowledge. And the Roman church spent a deal of effort in wiping out the gnostics (knowers). Thus I ask: Should the personal accounts of transition from belief to knowledge encourage the faithful?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 9:50:15 GMT 9.5
believing something to be true without evidence seems rather naive to me..... This of course raises the question of whether it is possible to move beyond faith to knowledge. And the Roman church spent a deal of effort in wiping out the gnostics (knowers). Thus I ask: Should the personal accounts of transition from belief to knowledge encourage the faithful? How would a claim of knowledge be more than assertion?
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Post by paul on May 25, 2011 10:57:18 GMT 9.5
If I were born blind what would I think of those who claimed to see stars?
Perhaps I would tell them that stars are just the spots you see when you press on your eyeballs.
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Post by LorrB on May 25, 2011 11:09:57 GMT 9.5
Just last Thursday I had a serious chat with 'someone upstairs' about sending us some people who might find this forum helpful or interesting. "Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true." - Aesop Are you finding this forum: a.. helpful? b.. interesting? A very warm welcome by the way - it's great when we have such variety in postings. We all get an opportunity to be pushed in pulled into areas we might not have explored previously. Love it!
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 11:50:18 GMT 9.5
So far, so good.
Thank you for your kind welcome.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 11:59:05 GMT 9.5
If I were born blind what would I think of those who claimed to see stars? Perhaps I would tell them that stars are just the spots you see when you press on your eyeballs. How do we distinguish between the possibility of our own sensory deficiency and the possibility of delusions experienced by others? "A hallucination is a fact, not an error; what is erroneous is a judgment based upon it." - Russell
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Post by paul on May 25, 2011 12:10:33 GMT 9.5
How do we know if the Sun is visible in the sky? We just look and the experience is so vivid that we accept it at face value
As below so above.
Many years ago I was very deep in meditation and God spoke to me. There was no thought process asking: what is that voice? It was intensely clear to me who it was.
This is called "direct knowledge" and it does not involve mental processes
Unfortunately by the time I reconnected my consciousness to my brain I had forgotten what He had said.
The wonderful thing about gnostics (knowers) is that they do not need to convince anyone else of their knowings. They know from experience that belief and convictions are not important.
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