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Post by paul on Sept 19, 2011 5:41:42 GMT 9.5
.... I'm not sure where you have come by the notion that tolerance is the first tenant of Freemasonry. However much some people might like to read something like that into our ritual, it is not there!... Tamrin continues to inspire new threads. What do others think - about tolerance not tenants? |
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Post by tamrin on Sept 19, 2011 6:10:06 GMT 9.5
I can find no mention of tolerance in my Craft rituals, let alone absolute, unbending tolerance as a first tenant. However much some people might like to read something like that into our ritual, it is not there! " But for one reason or another there is no mention of tolerance as a Masonic virtue or tenant" Clive HerronWe are charged to keep our passions and prejudices within due bounds. However, even a passion for tolerance can exceed those bounds where one tolerates what ought to be intolerable. |
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Post by paul on Sept 19, 2011 8:57:02 GMT 9.5
....unbending tolerance.... I hope never to be guilty of unbending tolerance |
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Post by LorrB on Sept 19, 2011 9:37:05 GMT 9.5
Tolerance ought to be talked about much more, especially in a country where “fair go” and “fair crack of the whip” need to come back into the national vocabulary. That’s why this issue looks at tolerance from so many different angles. That’s also why no mason worth his salt would want to be thought of as intolerant.
But there is also a case against tolerance. We hear it from the bigots. They tell us that in all honesty they and nobody else have to be right. Everyone else should be what they are. Only their creed, colour, politics, economic principles, age-group, sex and gender identity, and sporting preferences could possibly be valid. For them, nobody should be different. “Forget about personal conscience,” that’s their motto – “Don’t be you, be me! Heaven has no room for heretics!” That’s what might be called the hostile case against tolerance. Never mind that Oliver Wendell Holmes said, “Civilised humanity is mightier than any one institution...”
There is also a friendly case against tolerance. The friendly case says that tolerance on its own is too limiting. I’m glad you tolerate me, but it may mean that you put up with me because it’s politically correct, when deep down you’re not so sure about my right to be me, with my own mind, conscience and identity.
I’d much rather you and I honoured one another not in spite of our differences but because of them. I’d much rather we both said, “You’re you and I’m me, and God has made us both.” Moshe Leib of Sasov said, “What business has a drunken peasant in God’s world? But if God gets along with him, can I reject him?” I’d much rather people said to each other, “When you hurt I feel the pain; when you are happy, it’s my celebration too.” I don’t know what this should be called, but it is more than tolerance. Let’s find a word for it, but let’s not wait for the semantics. Let’s do the right thing and talk about it later. |
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Post by LorrB on Sept 19, 2011 9:39:09 GMT 9.5
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Post by LorrB on Sept 19, 2011 9:42:54 GMT 9.5
Looking at the terrifying religious and ethnic strife in so many parts of the world at the present time, one cannot help but be reassured and gratified by the harmony we Freemasons enjoy within our great fraternity. This congenial environment which is cherished by all of our brethren is attributed to the practice of tolerance, a hallmark off Freemasonry...and we intend to keep it that way.
Herbert G. Gardiner, PGS
Grand Historian Grand Lodge of Hawaii |
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Post by tamrin on Sept 19, 2011 9:49:02 GMT 9.5
Are we to tolerate lies?
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Post by paul on Sept 19, 2011 10:16:17 GMT 9.5
It would help if we understood what is truth. I have started a new thread on that
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Post by LorrB on Sept 19, 2011 10:56:43 GMT 9.5
Liars usually make themselves apparent after a short period of time. If we apply tolerance, they will expose themselves. And what is a lie? If I say to you that "some suicide bombers are good people" - would you consider that a lie? |
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Post by paul on Sept 19, 2011 12:57:15 GMT 9.5
I would have thought that a lodge with insufficient tolerance cannot survive long.
I recall a couple of small lodges with declining membership that amalgamated. Then for several years they disputed as to which ritual should be used. The combined lodge closed also.
There must be a better way.
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 19, 2011 14:41:24 GMT 9.5
I can find no mention of tolerance in my Craft rituals, let alone absolute, unbending tolerance as a first tenant. However much some people might like to read something like that into our ritual, it is not there! " But for one reason or another there is no mention of tolerance as a Masonic virtue or tenant" Clive HerronWe are charged to keep our passions and prejudices within due bounds. However, even a passion for tolerance can exceed those bounds where one tolerates what ought to be intolerable. I am still in shock that the author of the website and marketing matierals of the United Grand Lodge of England appear to have made such a grave mistake. The question is have the United Grand Lodge of England tried to deceive the population into joining ;D or as Tamrin has said on the other thread the primary tenet definition is just the opinion of the author? If it wasn't for the fact that I am happy to let ugle get on with it I would write to the Grand Secretary asking why the website says this and giving Tamrins thoughts on it. But as I have moved on I will will rest while tickling myself that the ugle amity masonic world cant even apparently agree on what the primary tenet should be. (I understand, perhaps incorrectly, that it was routinely ignored/not even thought about in ugle but that is an aside). And to think this thing of Tolerance which has apparently little place in the Craft is one of the main things that drew me towards it! Do you think that UGLE would have given me my money back if I had found out that they mislead me, through their website and marketing pamphlets, into joining (had they let me in obviously)?  You couldnt make it up - this is so funny. |
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Post by acrogers on Sept 19, 2011 14:48:45 GMT 9.5
On the subject of tolerance, and lies. If a person said that some suicide bombers are good people, I would not consider that a lie. One must surely distinguish between a lie and a sincerely held opinion. I would simply consider it misguided, because it does not take into account the fact that suicide bombers may be perfectly sincere in thinking they have found a quick way to heaven, yet we know in reality they have been lied to by those who should, and do know better.
In other words the lie is there, but not with either the bomber or the opinion about them, rather with the persons who are driving their actions. However, as Masons I'm sure we know how to balance both tolerance and discrimmination regarding good and evil.
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Post by paul on Sept 19, 2011 14:50:05 GMT 9.5
Stewart
You may have noticed that most Grand Lodges do not tolerate (recognise) Grand Lodges that compete with them for members in the same territory or state.
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Post by LorrB on Sept 19, 2011 15:58:30 GMT 9.5
(acrogers - and one sad truth about suicide bombers is that many of them are children, women, Down's Syndrome people and others who are mentally incapacitated)
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Post by tamrin on Sept 19, 2011 20:20:11 GMT 9.5
However, as Masons I'm sure we know how to balance both tolerance and discrimmination regarding good and evil. Well said. |
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Post by tamrin on Sept 19, 2011 20:46:29 GMT 9.5
On the subject of tolerance, and lies. Given that lying involves intent, I guess the question is, to what extent the Administrators here believe the falsehoods they publish? Every now and then, here and elsewhere, LorrB lets slip that she is having "fun" peddling this nonsense, as with, when responding to a rational post: Can't have that henka.. would not be so much fun. I'm pretty sure "Paul" too sometimes has his "fun" here at the expense of the Craft. |
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 19, 2011 21:03:46 GMT 9.5
Tamrin, bearing in mind that the people here have been of immense assistance to me in helping me find my way I am gobsmacked to what extent the Administrators here believe the falsehoods they publish? ..... LorrB lets slip that she is having "fun" peddling this nonsense,..... .......at the expense of the Craft. If it is falshoods and nonsense it has been a very effective way of helping me transverse the perils of life and progress along the path of my journey. Tamrin, do you really believe that the admins here are harming the Craft? (I am trying to stand in your shoes as best I can and understand your perspective) |
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Post by tamrin on Sept 19, 2011 21:22:36 GMT 9.5
Tamrin, do you really believe that the admins here are harming the Craft? Profoundly! In its modern form (post 17th Century) Freemasonry is a product of the rational Enlightenment, it draw its brightest luminaries from the intelligentsia of the time, notably from the Royal Society. It teaches respect for Reason and Wisdom. It opposes ignorance, superstition and tyranny. Yet the flippant mob here dress and parade it in the ridiculous and degrading robes of ****. |
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Post by stewartedwards on Sept 19, 2011 22:17:41 GMT 9.5
Tamrin, do you really believe that the admins here are harming the Craft? Profoundly! In its modern form (post 17th Century) Freemasonry is a product of the rational Enlightenment, it draw its brightest luminaries from the intelligentsia of the time, notably from the Royal Society. It teaches respect for Reason and Wisdom. It opposes ignorance, superstition and tyranny. Yet the flippant mob here dress and parade it in the ridiculous and degrading robes of ****. Tamrin, I am trying to understand your postion, so please bear with me here as I try to understand your postion a little better. And all masons who will instinctively react and get upset with what I am about to write please take a deep breath for I am only brainstorming, and it doesnt hurt to look at issues from different perspectives, the other mans shoes so to speak. I ask, and please dont get angry with me, for I am only philosophising possibilities, but your quote on the lodge energy thread Matthew 7 6 could that not be relevant here? Having just finished reading Knight and Butlers "Solomons Power Brokers" their suggestion that Freemasonry today may be the interloper, could be worthy of a consideration. Note Tamrin (and all you other ugle ites) I am not saying this, simply drawing on from a book written by your own members (or at least I think Knight is an ugle mason). But could it not be possible that the modern form of Freemasonry is not the original form, but one which was neutered for political reasons to do with the English Throne? If you look at it in this light then is it not possible that it is you who are not able to see or handle the inner aspects of freemasonry, and have now turned against its pure form by being intolerant of anyone else? I realise that this thought will be repulsive to many masons, but as someone who has looked into as much of the diverse world of freemasonry on this planet as he reasonably could, then from my perspective you have to ask the question. |
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Post by tamrin on Sept 20, 2011 5:29:56 GMT 9.5
I believe I have made my position clear.
Hint: Luke 8:10
Question: What were the secrets and mysteries of the early, apostolic Church and what became of them?
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