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Post by LorrB on Jun 1, 2011 10:26:38 GMT 9.5
We are having a St John in Winter Ceremony next meeting. Do any of your lodges have similar ceremonies, or pay particular attention to these two saints?
The are two of the saints attached to Freemasonry.
Why the two Johns?
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Post by paul on Jun 1, 2011 11:04:37 GMT 9.5
I think of the 2 Sts John as concealed content from the Templars who were Johannites.
Thus John the Baptist initiated Jesus (by baptism) and Jesus initiated no one - at least in the canonical accounts. Thus JtB is senior to Jesus.
John the Beloved was supposed by some to be the same as the one whom Jesus loved i.e. Lazarus. And the raising of Lazarus (Asar=Osiris) was the first raising of the new era.
Hence The Hiram Key maintains that Masonry is closer to primitive Christianity than the orthodox churches.
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Post by Henka on Jun 1, 2011 11:05:58 GMT 9.5
Wrong. They represent the Equinoxes.
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Post by paul on Jun 1, 2011 11:07:04 GMT 9.5
Wrong. They represent the Equinoxes. My two arms also represent the equinoxes when I extend them in the right time and place. More seriously: is there any New Testament text that links the Johns to the equinoxes? Or is that a recent discovery?
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Post by LorrB on Jun 1, 2011 12:51:49 GMT 9.5
henka... if you are correct in your assumption, why would the equinoxes be referred to as saints and not just equinoxes? I don't see a need for veiling.
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Post by LorrB on Jun 1, 2011 13:17:05 GMT 9.5
I think of the 2 Sts John as concealed content from the Templars who were Johannites. Thus John the Baptist initiated Jesus (by baptism) and Jesus initiated no one - at least in the canonical accounts. Thus JtB is senior to Jesus. Mary Magdalene also baptised people...
In The Acts of Philip, Mary outwits her oppressive culture by dressing up as a man in order to teach and baptize the faithful. This Scripture places Mary as the actual sister of the Apostle Philip (another favorite hero of the Gnostics); and in the end her courage and faith are stronger than her sibling’s.
www.examiner.com/gnosticism-heretical-spirituality-in-national/why-do-gnostics-consider-mary-magdalene-the-greatest-apostle
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Post by paul on Jun 1, 2011 13:27:15 GMT 9.5
Mary Magdalene also baptised people... Do we know who baptised her?
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Post by Henka on Jun 1, 2011 13:33:11 GMT 9.5
henka... if you are correct in your assumption, why would the equinoxes be referred to as saints and not just equinoxes? I don't see a need for veiling. In the Christianized culture of Scotland it did. Astronomical knowledge was frowned upon by the Church - remember Gallileo? The ritual is designed to impart knowledge in a veiled manner, so that it may be transmitted down the generations regardless of ability to interpret it. Those who find the key will know that which is intended.
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Post by Henka on Jun 1, 2011 13:35:33 GMT 9.5
Wrong. They represent the Equinoxes. My two arms also represent the equinoxes when I extend them in the right time and place. More seriously: is there any New Testament text that links the Johns to the equinoxes? Or is that a recent discovery? Oh come on. Look at the respective dates. Look at the layout of the lodge and the position of the candidate in the EA degree and the Brother in the FC degree in relation to the WM. What rises in the East at Midsummer? in which direction is a Temple properly oriented?
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Post by Henka on Jun 1, 2011 13:37:39 GMT 9.5
My bad, I meant Solstices. *facepalm*
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Post by LorrB on Jun 1, 2011 13:40:00 GMT 9.5
For Gnostic Pagans ... and Freemasons June 23: Celtic Day of the Green Man - In honor of Cerne, Cernernos, Lugh.
June 24: TEMPLAR HOLY DAY. In the Roman calendar this day was thought to be Summer Solstice. The Church renamed this pagan holiday to St. John the Baptist Day. Templars revered it highly. On Jun 24, 1314 a mysterious band of knights joined Robert the Bruce of Scotland on the battlefield making his victory at Bannockburn possible. These knights could only have been a troop of disbanded and now in-hiding Templars who had fled to western Scotland. St. John's day was used by Freemasons in 1717 to found the first public (non-Scottish) Order of Freemasonry in London. Masonic teachings are said to descend from the esoteric Christianity of Templarism. St. John the Baptizer was beheaded because he wouldn't give in and sacrifice his principles. This is a Templar ideal, as is the constancy and regularity (order out of chaos) of the solstices and equinoxes.
- Feast of the Sun (Aztec)
- Feast of St. John the Baptist
- Midsummer Bride (Swedish)
- Inti Raymi (Incan)
- Lady Luck (European)
- Burning of the Lamps at Sais (Egyptian)
www.gnostics.com/calendar.html
Emphasis mine. (I only included the Green Man bit up to, to get you all going a bit... I actually think that the green man to 'Jesus' left in The Last Supper is who DaVinci meant to represent Jesus. We have a thread of that subject here for newbies that might have missed it).
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Post by LorrB on Jun 1, 2011 13:41:40 GMT 9.5
Mary Magdalene also baptised people... Do we know who baptised her? ... uh-oh another wild goose chase for me... now I have to find out
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Post by LorrB on Jun 1, 2011 13:43:32 GMT 9.5
My bad, I meant Solstices. *facepalm* me too. I knew what you meant and didn't take notice of the word.
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Post by Henka on Jun 1, 2011 13:45:40 GMT 9.5
For Gnostic Pagans ... and Freemasons June 23: Celtic Day of the Green Man - In honor of Cerne, Cernernos, Lugh.
June 24: TEMPLAR HOLY DAY. In the Roman calendar this day was thought to be Summer Solstice. The Church renamed this pagan holiday to St. John the Baptist Day. Templars revered it highly. On Jun 24, 1314 a mysterious band of knights joined Robert the Bruce of Scotland on the battlefield making his victory at Bannockburn possible. These knights could only have been a troop of disbanded and now in-hiding Templars who had fled to western Scotland. St. John's day was used by Freemasons in 1717 to found the first public (non-Scottish) Order of Freemasonry in London. Masonic teachings are said to descend from the esoteric Christianity of Templarism. St. John the Baptizer was beheaded because he wouldn't give in and sacrifice his principles. This is a Templar ideal, as is the constancy and regularity (order out of chaos) of the solstices and equinoxes.
- Feast of the Sun (Aztec)
- Feast of St. John the Baptist
- Midsummer Bride (Swedish)
- Inti Raymi (Incan)
- Lady Luck (European)
- Burning of the Lamps at Sais (Egyptian)
www.gnostics.com/calendar.html
Emphasis mine. (I only included the Green Man bit up to, to get you all going a bit... I actually think that the green man to 'Jesus' left in The Last Supper is who DaVinci meant to represent Jesus. We have a thread of that subject here for newbies that might have missed it). So says these particular Gnostic Pagans on this particular site. Does not make it so.
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Post by paul on Jun 1, 2011 13:46:42 GMT 9.5
Henka, "The Nativity of St John the Baptist is one of the oldest festivals of the Christian church, being listed by the Council of Agde in 506 as one of that region's principal festivals, where it was a day of rest and, like Christmas, was celebrated with three Masses: a vigil, at dawn, and at midday. The Nativity of St John the Baptist on June 24 " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_St._John_the_BaptistThis seems to suggest that by 506AD it was acceptable to mark the summer solstice with a John. "The feast day of Saint John in the Roman Catholic Church, ...... is on 27 December. I.......... The 27 December feast is found in the Syriac Breviary of the end of the 4th century" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Evangelist#Feast_dayPerhaps the church in Scotland had different views - although the Celtic church seemed to celebrate the solstices.
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Post by Henka on Jun 1, 2011 13:57:15 GMT 9.5
Of course the Celtic Church did. Where do you think the Druids went? The Catholic Church had a habit of appropriating Pagan celebrations and ascribing them to Saints. Astronomy was, of course, a tool of the Devil because it contradicted the Bible...
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Post by paul on Jun 1, 2011 14:23:31 GMT 9.5
Returning to the original question, I note the "John gesture" that appears so often in Leonardo da Vinci. I also note that the same gesture appears in the Rose Croix degree - particularly those rituals that do not use swords much.
Could there be a John undercurrent?
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Post by LorrB on Jun 1, 2011 16:32:37 GMT 9.5
Could be.
In Christian art the eagle with its wings extended is the symbol of St. John the Evangelist.
"This is he that lay on the breast of our Pelican, He that was chosen from the Cross for the great charge" Dante's "Paradiso"
A reminder that it was Evangelist John, the beloved disciple who lay on the Master's breast at the Last Supper?
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Post by paul on Jun 1, 2011 17:23:50 GMT 9.5
The pelican can be both alchemical and occult symbols.
Dante was condemned to death by the Roman church and one of his works banned, he may have had unorthodox views about meaning as well as politics. Hence I wonder if the Christian interpretation of the pelican is only what Dante intended.
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Post by tamrin on Jun 2, 2011 6:22:32 GMT 9.5
Returning to the original question, I note the "John gesture" that appears so often in Leonardo da Vinci. I also note that the same gesture appears in the Rose Croix degree - particularly those rituals that do not use swords much.
Could there be a John undercurrent? Indeed there could. I have an excellent book on the subject, "The Fourth Gospel and the Eighteenth Degree," by Arthur Brown, 1956, Rockliff, London. The degree also appears to have a Mithraic undercurrent
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