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Post by paul on Mar 12, 2011 8:25:14 GMT 9.5
It took me many years before I could find my own vision of the GAOTU and having achieved some sense of that transcendent Entity I am happy to report that He/She (being dual) does not have theological preferences.
My experience of the GAOTU is quite consistent with the well known quotation: "Having pervaded this entire universe with a fragment of Myself, I remain".
Thus the individual human may experience either the pervading force or the inherent intelligence. This allows the Source of All to be perceived as a specific entity (personal God) or as an impersonal force.
English-speaking Masonry commonly uses the personal God as the cultural form required for its Masonry however this is not essential.
Thus those who use labels such as The Force may well consider themselves as Atheist in the philosophical sense of not recognising a personal deity or creator but in my view they are still capable of being True to the GAOTU.
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Post by nventr on Mar 12, 2011 9:23:22 GMT 9.5
Agreed!
Now Buddhist will be able to follow the path of masonry . . . or not.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 15, 2011 9:15:14 GMT 9.5
What are your views on there being a requisite belief in Christianity for entering the Rose Croix?
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Post by paul on Mar 15, 2011 9:44:39 GMT 9.5
Modern RC ritual is written to appear Christian although it shows signs of Sumer and of course alchemy. (Arguably alchemy comes via Sumer)
Historically there has been criticism of Christianity (particularly Roman) based on its similarity to Sumerian and Babylonian religious practice.
When I put those two statements together I conclude that the candidate for RC may understand the requirement for belief in Christianity to be entirely compatible with non-Christian forms of the Rose Croix
For example the Trinitarian form of Christianity finds a counterpart in the Sumerian trinity whose names are reproduced in HRA.
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Post by Cora B on Mar 16, 2011 6:35:34 GMT 9.5
Thank you so much for opening this topic, Paul. While part of me considers this from the lines of The Lausanne Congress, 1875, another part of me considers the possibility that the question may be, on some level, insignificant. Insignificant in the sense that the Temple of Humanity is built by and for Human Beings, and in that way may actually embody the perfection of Humanity -- its exaltation TTGOTGAOTU. Perhaps that is the greatest secret of all -- and perhaps that is why since the days of Lausanne there has been such division on the subject ... With h.g.w.,
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Post by LorrB on Mar 16, 2011 8:13:05 GMT 9.5
I believe some Orders of European Masonry do not require a belief in a Supreme Being.. so obviously one can become a mason without a belief in God.
While I agree that a belief in God is not essential to Spiritual evolution (grasping for the correct words here), I think that the symbolism of the ritual I work (Lauderdale) would remain a mystery to those who are not inspired to seek further afield for their meaning, which in my opinion is related to connecting more closely to the Source (so as to become more useful?)
Masonic athiests may be encouraged to act more morally and ethically in their daily lives, and may undertake a more in depth study of the secrets and mysteries of Science and Nature. So one might argue that Freemasonry is a benefit to them also.
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Post by paul on Mar 16, 2011 8:33:13 GMT 9.5
I think that an atheist may understand that Life has meaning and purpose without attaching that purpose to a particular god.
Such an atheist presumably aspires to support the purpose of Life and thus to follow some Life-supporting ethic
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Post by Cora B on Mar 16, 2011 9:15:30 GMT 9.5
I'm inclined to agree with you, Paul.
The two Craft Lodges I belong to work Lauderdale like Lorraine's, but I do not believe that its mysteries would remain locked to a person who does not acknowledge the existence of a personal God.
It really does not matter what a person believes -- in the end he will find the point within the centre. Whether he calls that point God, the Sun, the Self or E=MC2 is neither here nor there.
Our (British) Federation asserts a belief in a Creative Principle. It imposes no limits in the search for truth and expects tolerance from its members. I rather like that.
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Post by LorrB on Mar 16, 2011 11:11:12 GMT 9.5
How does an agnostic or atheist mason make sense then of the VSL - one of the T..g..e..l... in Freemasonry? How does an agnostic or atheist mason make sense if the Lauderdale explanation of the three symbolical journeys? They might leap to the conclusion that we are some sort of weird sect
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Post by paul on Mar 16, 2011 12:35:30 GMT 9.5
An atheist who is not a stupid atheist could perhaps consider that the purpose that manifests as Life, shines through all beings and that writings that other brethren hold to be sacred, can be a valid symbol of the purpose.
The brother is not required to interpret the symbolic journeys in any particular way. The journeys however map neatly on to the 3 lowest planes so arguably are based upon the structure of reality.
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Post by Cora B on Mar 17, 2011 1:27:33 GMT 9.5
In their own way - as we are meant to. We all interpret each symbol -- of which the Volume of the Sacred Lore is one -- in our own way. Otherwise, how would it be an experiential journey instead of a prescribed one? I think our International Constitution (excerpts below) is sufficiently clear on the matter. "The International Order of Co-Freemasonry Le Droit Humain professes no dogma. Its purpose is the search for Truth." "In addition to respecting independence from all religious institutions and organization and all beliefs concerning survival or non-survival after death, its members seek above all to realise on earth the greatest possible degree of moral, intellectual and spiritual development for all people. It believes this to be the prerequisite of happiness attainable by each individual attainable in a fraternally organised humanity." "The Lodges of the International Order of Co-Freemasonry Le Droit Humain work 'to the glory of the Great Architect of the Universe' and/or 'to the perfection of humanity'" How does an agnostic or atheist mason make sense then of the VSL - one of the T..g..e..l... in Freemasonry? How does an agnostic or atheist mason make sense if the Lauderdale explanation of the three symbolical journeys? They might leap to the conclusion that we are some sort of weird sect
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sallyroberts
Beauty
"Let us serve according to our means and our strength"
Posts: 21
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Post by sallyroberts on Mar 17, 2011 1:35:01 GMT 9.5
I'm inclined to agree with you, Paul. The two Craft Lodges I belong to work Lauderdale like Lorraine's, but I do not believe that its mysteries would remain locked to a person who does not acknowledge the existence of a personal God. It really does not matter what a person believes -- in the end he will find the point within the centre. Whether he calls that point God, the Sun, the Self or E=MC2 is neither here nor there. Our (British) Federation asserts a belief in a Creative Principle. It imposes no limits in the search for truth and expects tolerance from its members. I rather like that. Yes indeed Bro.'. Cora - Our Old Friend The Point Within the Circle from which no M.'.M.'. can err As you rightly say, what we call It is really of little importance...That we experience It is, however, profoundly so - but in whatever way is right for us!
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Post by Cora B on Mar 17, 2011 4:38:37 GMT 9.5
I'm inclined to agree with you, Paul. The two Craft Lodges I belong to work Lauderdale like Lorraine's, but I do not believe that its mysteries would remain locked to a person who does not acknowledge the existence of a personal God. It really does not matter what a person believes -- in the end he will find the point within the centre. Whether he calls that point God, the Sun, the Self or E=MC2 is neither here nor there. Our (British) Federation asserts a belief in a Creative Principle. It imposes no limits in the search for truth and expects tolerance from its members. I rather like that. Yes indeed Bro.'. Cora - Our Old Friend The Point Within the Circle from which no M.'.M.'. can err As you rightly say, what we call It is really of little importance...That we experience It is, however, profoundly so - but in whatever way is right for us! Nicely put Bro∴ Sally The more I ponder this thread -- here and elsewhere (Universal trend?) -- the more I am reminded of Neale D. Walsh's "Conversations with God", which if I am not much mistaken you have read, too -- correct? Maybe you can help me express this. In the Conversations God explains how all that is (and is not) came about. The simplified version: God was (all there was) and knew that It was, but It wanted to Experience that It was. In order to Experience Itself, It needed to know Itself from a reference point outside Itself, and that was not possible, since It was all there was. And so "In rendering the universe of a divided version of Itself, God produced, from pure energy, all that now exists -- both seen and unseen." I am beginning to sense that this apparent 'division' in Freemasonry; this eternal point of dispute and strive over Theism or Deism; Supreme Being or Creative Principle; Thing-Ness or No-Thing-Ness, may actually be very essential to not only Freemasonry, but humanity and the Universe at large. It may be the Yin and Yang of Life -- we just need to understand that, and stop flipping arguing about it. J'ai dit!
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Post by stewartedwards on Mar 17, 2011 7:12:46 GMT 9.5
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Post by LorrB on Mar 17, 2011 8:26:56 GMT 9.5
I am coming to the conclusion that the thread question is a bit ambivalent.
The Who or What is God question has filled libraries to date, with no real conclusion agreed to by all.
Masonry, likewise, covers too many forms or expressions of it for it to be taken as just one thing.
In LDH - we have two totally different rituals which each express the same thing at different levels.
Lauderdale Ritual...
We invoke the aid of TGAOTU (and his ministers) .... how would you explain this to an atheist or agnostic? Or do you see 'invoke' as just another word and not an 'operation'?
Are you 'working' during a lodge meeting or are you gathering inspiration for just working outside the lodgeroom?
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Post by paul on Mar 17, 2011 8:31:55 GMT 9.5
I would have thought most Deists understand the format of Theist belief and are capable of translating.
Thus "we invoke the aid of the GAOTU" becomes "may the Force be with us"
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Post by LorrB on Mar 17, 2011 8:51:38 GMT 9.5
But athiests do not even believe in 'a Force', most expecially with a capital F.
And I would hazard a guess that an Intelligent Force would push them over the edge, we would be accused of talking God talk again.
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Post by paul on Mar 17, 2011 9:09:12 GMT 9.5
But athiests do not even believe in 'a Force', most expecially with a capital F. Perhaps such atheists would not be interested in Masonry. If we refer to Atheists should we not also consider Adeists?
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Post by Henka on Mar 17, 2011 9:24:57 GMT 9.5
I would have thought most Deists understand the format of Theist belief and are capable of translating. Thus "we invoke the aid of the GAOTU" becomes "may the Force be with us" Yeah, if you're a Jedi. ;D
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Post by LorrB on Mar 17, 2011 9:25:41 GMT 9.5
But athiests do not even believe in 'a Force', most expecially with a capital F. Perhaps such atheists would not be interested in Masonry. Which was the point I was trying to get across. Don't forget though, that many join Masonry for the wrong reason/s. A very important point. I would be very cautious about admitting an athiest to our particular lodge, no problems with deists, theists or agnostics. An athiest's belief system might jeopardise the harmony of the workings. Scientist have now acknowledged that the mind of the experimenter affects the experiment itself. Ditto with lodge work.
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