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Post by stepnwolf on Jun 24, 2013 5:16:25 GMT 9.5
Many of the discussions here seem to be unconsciously influenced by the philosophical system created by the Russian-American, Ayn Rand. She has certainly had an effect on the political thinking in the U.S as well, particularly among conservative Republicans like Paul Ryan who was the Republican vice-presidential candidate in 2012. Her first premise is that there is an objective reality out there independent of consciousness. We might question her second premise which is that we can know that reality (solely) through perception and logic. This leads Rand to postulate the 3rd premise that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez-faire capitalism (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_philosophy). It is my belief that the system is inimical to the Masonic belief system as we know it here. Objective reality is out there and in here, revealed to us in degrees. Revelation is not confined to the senses or even to the treatment of logic. No matter how the 3rd premise is dressed up in terms like enlightened self-interest or compassionate conservatism, the result is still an emphasis on self, small s. There seems to be the assumption that poor people want to be poor, as rich people want to be rich. By extension, stupid people want to be stupid and the wise, well we know about them. My Masonry stands opposed to these assumptions. Many founders of modern Freemasonry were the intellectuals, the aristocrats, of their day but they built their system on the foundations of the common man, the laborers whose experience lead them to the ideals we hold today. The mind of man is a tricky thing and is quite capable of holding opposing views at the same time. It must have some survival value or we wouldn't be able to do it.
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Post by LorrB on Jun 24, 2013 8:23:32 GMT 9.5
... there is an objective reality out there independent of consciousness. My gut feeling is that All is conscious.. even a stone to a small degree. (Don't laugh, if you believe God is Omnipresent, how could a stone not have a degree on consciousness?) I haven't read Ayn Rand. That is on my 'must read one day' list. I do believe that we are all part of the one conscious mind, our 'conscious self' part popping in and out of different realities (life/death, heavens/hells)much like in the quantum world where particles of an atom pop in and out of existence. Scientists speculate that the vanishing particles are popping into some other dimension. Check out String Theory. As our brains are tuned into a certain frequency of vibration we are unable to sense these other dimensions while we are in this one, generally speaking that is. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
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Post by stepnwolf on Jun 28, 2013 21:43:13 GMT 9.5
String Theory is a fascinating study on our march toward a Unified Theory of Everything. Good luck on that! The mind of man continually tries to encompass and understand more of the universe. He shines the light of reason into the dark corners of superstition, bringing it under the control of logic. It may be that "reality" is like the fractal; we magnify part of it to understand it more. The closer we look, the deeper we fathom its mysteries, the less of the whole do we see. It's frustrating to realize that the more we know, the more we don't know.
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Post by paul on Jul 3, 2013 17:14:53 GMT 9.5
> All is conscious.. even a stone to a small degree
Quartz is particularly valuable for its inbuilt internet across the galaxy. I am not sure that an objectivist would even want to experience such a web.
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Post by gobbledygook on Jul 3, 2013 18:24:57 GMT 9.5
Quartz is particularly valuable for its inbuilt internet across the galaxy. What does that even mean?
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Post by stewartedwards on Jul 3, 2013 19:40:55 GMT 9.5
Quartz is particularly valuable for its inbuilt internet across the galaxy. What does that even mean? Exactly what it says gobbledygook. Please take this in the spirit of helpfulness that I genuinely mean it GG but you are clearly someone who is very good with his head. But if you work more on your heart it could enable you to come to understand such things. You have to learn to "feel". In the meantime think of it as being like a scientific paradigm or mental construct. A theory if you like, but a theory that enables sense to be made of things. That all said where I do agree with you wholeheartedly here is when you see new age crystal shops, many leave me less than impressed when they try to sell their crystals as healing etc. That is in too many cases simply a marketing ploy designed to play on human weaknesses. However if you reflect hard on Pauls words here GG, and try to use your heart (it might take months or years) one day you might get an "ah-ha" moment when it makes crystal clear sense to you. As with the ancient mystery schools you have an outer and an inner temple. If you look at the proverbs inscribed on said temples you will see the subtle difference in what is required. So go for it GG. A good start could be reading and reflecting very hard on the likes of "Way of the Craftsman" by MacNulty [bought my copy in the ugle shop - whose doors definitely did not have Egyptian goddesses on them ] or a lot of the things that come out of Living Stones (an UGLE lodge - sadly I am told other esoteric lodges have been sat upon and closed from on high). Ultimately though you might have to refine the balance of your head and your heart. Its practical philosophy GG, and it can and does lead to a lot of benefits. Be warned however if you do you might end up being seen as the madman when you "get it" and your mates who haven't done the necessary work don't. But within the masonic world there are a lot of people who are very experienced who can help you with this journey if you sincerely want to walk it. They are not that hard to find if you are a genuine seeker of the mysteries. Now please accept my apologies if you feel I have been rude, but you asked what Pauls words meant, and I have explained to you how to find out and understand for yourself. It is not one of those things that anyone can tell you, in a similar way that if you told a primary school child the intricacies of brain surgery they would struggle. you have to do the inner work yourself and then you will "get it." But there is plenty of material in the masonic world that can be used to help enable understanding of Pauls words here. Including the first degree tracing board but it will take a lot of lateral thinking combined with "feeling energy" [and that will take time]. Now I find out I have just upset a Grand Master
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François-Marie Arouet
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Post by François-Marie Arouet on Jul 3, 2013 20:05:25 GMT 9.5
What does that even mean? Exactly what it says gobbledygook. Please take this in the spirit of helpfulness that I genuinely mean it GG but you are clearly someone who is very good with his head. But if you work more on your heart it could enable you to come to understand such things. You have to learn to "feel". In the meantime think of it as being like a scientific paradigm or mental construct. A theory if you like, but a theory that enables sense to be made of things. That all said where I do agree with you wholeheartedly here is when you see new age crystal shops, many leave me less than impressed when they try to sell their crystals as healing etc. That is in too many cases simply a marketing ploy designed to play on human weaknesses. However if you reflect hard on Pauls words here GG, and try to use your heart (it might take months or years) one day you might get an "ah-ha" moment when it makes crystal clear sense to you. As with the ancient mystery schools you have an outer and an inner temple. If you look at the proverbs inscribed on said temples you will see the subtle difference in what is required. So go for it GG. A good start could be reading and reflecting very hard on the likes of "Way of the Craftsman" by MacNulty [bought my copy in the ugle shop - whose doors definitely did not have Egyptian goddesses on them ;-|] or a lot of the things that come out of Living Stones (an UGLE lodge - sadly I am told other esoteric lodges have been sat upon and closed from on high). Ultimately though you might have to refine the balance of your head and your heart. Its practical philosophy GG, and it can and does lead to a lot of benefits. Be warned however if you do you might end up being seen as the madman when you "get it" and your mates who haven't done the necessary work don't. But within the masonic world there are a lot of people who are very experienced who can help you with this journey if you sincerely want to walk it. They are not that hard to find if you are a genuine seeker of the mysteries. Now please accept my apologies if you feel I have been rude, but you asked what Pauls words meant, and I have explained to you how to find out and understand for yourself. It is not one of those things that anyone can tell you, in a similar way that if you told a primary school child the intricacies of brain surgery they would struggle. you have to do the inner work yourself and then you will "get it." But there is plenty of material in the masonic world that can be used to help enable understanding of Pauls words here. Including the first degree tracing board but it will take a lot of lateral thinking combined with "feeling energy" [and that will take time]. Now I find out I have just upset a Grand Master :-X “When he to whom a person speaks does not understand, and he who speaks does not understand himself, that is metaphysics.” - Bro. Voltaire.
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Post by paul on Jul 4, 2013 7:51:05 GMT 9.5
>When he to whom a person speaks does not understand, and he who speaks does not understand himself, that is metaphysics
Of course it helps to:
- speak the same language - have a common set of assumptions about Existence - be mentally compatible (not antagonistic) - be prepared to learn new realities - be master of one's own thoughts.
Oh dear!
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Post by circular reasoning on Jul 4, 2013 18:09:24 GMT 9.5
>When he to whom a person speaks does not understand, and he who speaks does not understand himself, that is metaphysics Of course it helps to: - speak the same language - have a common set of assumptions about Existence - be mentally compatible (not antagonistic) - be prepared to learn new realities - be master of one's own thoughts. Oh dear! Oh dear! One already needs to be a true believer.
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Post by paul on Jul 4, 2013 20:11:38 GMT 9.5
Oddly enough belief was nowhere in the list.
The requirement of a common set of assumptions is in order to have agreed meaning for concepts such as "human". Without common ground there little useful discussion about what might be objective.
For example the simplest geometry starts with assuming the existence of either points or lines. Without such a starting assumption there is no geometry.
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Post by true assumer on Jul 5, 2013 11:25:56 GMT 9.5
Oddly enough belief was nowhere in the list. The requirement of a common set of assumptions is in order to have agreed meaning for concepts such as "human". Without common ground there little useful discussion about what might be objective. For example the simplest geometry starts with assuming the existence of either points or lines. Without such a starting assumption there is no geometry. Oh dear! One already needs to be a true assumer.
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Post by paul on Jul 5, 2013 11:35:33 GMT 9.5
>One already needs to be a true assumer.
It is true. There is no science without starting assumptions. For example, I assume I exist. Now I can consider being scientific.
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Post by skeptic on Jul 5, 2013 12:23:18 GMT 9.5
>One already needs to be a true assumer. It is true. There is no science without starting assumptions. For example, I assume I exist. Now I can consider being scientific. A true scientist is sceptical of his or her assumptions.
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Post by LorrB on Jul 5, 2013 12:39:35 GMT 9.5
.. so they know nothing?
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Post by paul on Jul 5, 2013 12:44:35 GMT 9.5
... I assume I exist. Now I can consider being scientific. A true scientist is sceptical of his or her assumptions. It must make it hard to believe.
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Post by conditional belief on Jul 5, 2013 12:54:58 GMT 9.5
A true scientist is sceptical of his or her assumptions. It must make it hard to believe. Unconditional belief is not a scientific virtue.
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Post by paul on Jul 5, 2013 15:09:50 GMT 9.5
So do you have unconditional belief in your own existence?
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Post by cogito ergo sum on Jul 5, 2013 17:37:35 GMT 9.5
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Post by paul on Jul 5, 2013 18:11:02 GMT 9.5
I take it then that you do not have unconditional belief in your own existence.
The escape from the problem is direct perception of Reality - without mental process. Maslow's transcending self-actualisers provide examples.
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Post by Abraham Maslow on Jul 5, 2013 18:25:50 GMT 9.5
The escape from the problem is direct perception of Reality - without mental process. Maslow's transcending self-actualisers provide examples. Maslow's self-transcendence is not a condition of psychism but a developmental stage in which one commits to cause greater than one's self such as humanity.
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