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Prayer
Jun 25, 2013 18:20:27 GMT 9.5
Post by Tenzin Gyatso on Jun 25, 2013 18:20:27 GMT 9.5
“I think prayer is, for the most part, simply reminders in your daily practice. So, the verses look like prayers, but are actually reminders of how to speak, how to deal with other problems, other people, things like that in daily life.” - 14th Dalai Lama. I have to agree with the Venerable Tenzin Gyatso. Then if not to pray for me, what did you mean in your opening post in saying. "If that is the case, real or perceived, our duty to a brother is clear."
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Prayer
Jun 25, 2013 20:25:35 GMT 9.5
Post by stepnwolf on Jun 25, 2013 20:25:35 GMT 9.5
I learn more about Freemasonry from non masons than masons. The genius of the Masonic system is that it gives us the template for putting all the pieces together into a workable whole. You've noticed that, too! You may have uncovered one of the Mysteries of the Craft Paul was speaking about earlier. It is a fraternity that encourages men (and women) to become better; it is a repository of hidden lore that aids our understanding of the universe, but it is also an archetype that gives shape and form to the wisdom it imparts.
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Prayer
Jun 26, 2013 13:21:41 GMT 9.5
Post by Passerby on Jun 26, 2013 13:21:41 GMT 9.5
Then if not to pray for me, what did you mean in your opening post in saying. "If that is the case, real or perceived, our duty to a brother is clear." It is a worry indeed. Masons are capable of producing effects at distance. And what will the GAOTU do if a Mason asks?
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Prayer
Jun 26, 2013 14:19:41 GMT 9.5
Post by LorrB on Jun 26, 2013 14:19:41 GMT 9.5
I learn more about Freemasonry from non masons than masons. The genius of the Masonic system is that it gives us the template for putting all the pieces together into a workable whole. You've noticed that, too! You may have uncovered one of the Mysteries of the Craft Paul was speaking about earlier. It is a fraternity that encourages men (and women) to become better; it is a repository of hidden lore that aids our understanding of the universe, but it is also an archetype that gives shape and form to the wisdom it imparts. Have you seen this one stepnwolf... talk about fitting pieces into place. This is a paper by Bro William Steve Burkle KT, 32 deg. www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/esoteric-masonry-tetragrammaton.html
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Prayer
Jun 26, 2013 19:54:26 GMT 9.5
Post by Emo Philips on Jun 26, 2013 19:54:26 GMT 9.5
“When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.” - Emo Philips.
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Prayer
Jun 26, 2013 20:00:45 GMT 9.5
Post by stepnwolf on Jun 26, 2013 20:00:45 GMT 9.5
Thank you, Lorr, very much. You certainly remember the stuff that interests me most. Much appreciation for the link.
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Prayer
Jun 26, 2013 20:25:18 GMT 9.5
Post by stepnwolf on Jun 26, 2013 20:25:18 GMT 9.5
“When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.” - Emo Philips. One more step and Emo would have understood karma as well. I have sometimes been in the embarrassing position of wanting something desperately only to discover that it didn't turn out well at all. If praying does not give the desired results, I suppose that in the Universal Plan I'm not to get it. Evangelicals would recommend praying harder with fasting and other austerities. In other words they want to force God to do their will. We do have free will and can run counter to the Plan, like stealing or forcing other results of an action. I wonder if that really works out well in the end. It hasn't for me!
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Prayer
Jun 26, 2013 20:37:50 GMT 9.5
Post by LorrB on Jun 26, 2013 20:37:50 GMT 9.5
Every single time I have thrown up my hands to the heavens and said in exasperation 'done all I can God, it's all yours" - the most amazing and unexpected things have happened. This does not mean that sick people I have prayed for have not died - (but most have come back to visit me to say 'hey, its ok over here.? They all looked very happy about their situation.) Thy Will, not mine O Lord.
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Prayer
Jun 27, 2013 17:31:50 GMT 9.5
Post by Emo Philips on Jun 27, 2013 17:31:50 GMT 9.5
“When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.” - Emo Philips. One more step and Emo would have understood karma as well. If Emo was not taken in by the superstition of prayer no doubt he would have also understood karma to be a superstition www.skepdic.com/karma.html
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Prayer
Jun 27, 2013 17:33:29 GMT 9.5
Post by Joseph Butler on Jun 27, 2013 17:33:29 GMT 9.5
Every single time I have thrown up my hands to the heavens and said in exasperation 'done all I can God, it's all yours" - the most amazing and unexpected things have happened. This does not mean that sick people I have prayed for have not died - (but most have come back to visit me :) to say 'hey, its ok over here.? They all looked very happy about their situation.) Thy Will, not mine O Lord. “Sir, the pretending to extraordinary revelations and gifts of the Holy Ghost is a horrid thing, a very horrid thing.” - Joseph Butler.
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Prayer
Jun 27, 2013 19:29:31 GMT 9.5
Post by LorrB on Jun 27, 2013 19:29:31 GMT 9.5
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Prayer
Jun 28, 2013 7:46:01 GMT 9.5
Post by LorrB on Jun 28, 2013 7:46:01 GMT 9.5
I am remembering having teenage children ... it is MUCH easier being 'Grandma'!
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Prayer
Jun 28, 2013 17:47:58 GMT 9.5
Post by Michael Shermer on Jun 28, 2013 17:47:58 GMT 9.5
"Let’s say one million people have cancer in America (it’s much higher than this), and only one-tenth of one percent experience a spontaneous recovery (it’s actually higher than this). 1,000,000 x .001 = 1,000 people. Out of that cohort of 1,000 people, what are the chances that half a dozen of them have compelling narrative stories worthy of broadcast television? Pretty good! Here is a show you will never see on any television series: “Next, we examine the remarkable fact that 99.99 percent of people who were diagnosed with incurable cancer and were prayed for died anyway." - Michael Shermer.
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Prayer
Jun 29, 2013 10:59:18 GMT 9.5
Post by stepnwolf on Jun 29, 2013 10:59:18 GMT 9.5
I don't want to get in the middle of this argument that has no real solution. Still there seem to be a number of variables yet to be considered. You look for only one proof of the efficacy of prayer: remission of cancer. While I would need further proof that your numbers are correct, I propose that there are other conditions both in the patient and the pray-er that indicate efficacy. Some prayer warriors would storm the gates of heaven to get their way, that is to effect a cure. Others accept that there is a Plan and prayer does not attempt to thwart the Plan, but to facilitate it.
Assuming for a moment that prayer has no real influence on the progress of the disease, the act of prayer comforts the believer, in that he/she is doing all she can to comfort the sufferer. The psychological affects are all positive and that alone can cause improvement. In the search for truth would you deny a suffering humanity the comfort of prayer? We are not all made of such stern stuff. Truth is cold comfort in the midst of pain.
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George Bernard Shaw
Guest
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Prayer
Jul 3, 2013 20:09:38 GMT 9.5
Post by George Bernard Shaw on Jul 3, 2013 20:09:38 GMT 9.5
Assuming for a moment that prayer has no real influence on the progress of the disease, the act of prayer comforts the believer, in that he/she is doing all she can to comfort the sufferer. The psychological affects are all positive and that alone can cause improvement. In the search for truth would you deny a suffering humanity the comfort of prayer? We are not all made of such stern stuff. Truth is cold comfort in the midst of pain. I have no idea why this particular quote is repeatedly deleted and results in a further attempted ban, while others are tolerated. Is it too pertinent? "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw.
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Prayer
Jul 3, 2013 20:32:26 GMT 9.5
Post by stepnwolf on Jul 3, 2013 20:32:26 GMT 9.5
Ah, George, A curmudgeon in death as well as life, I see. His life may have made him an expert on the subject, but he doesn't know his drunks very well. Almost invariably they drink to cover hurt and they are not a very happy lot by and large. Since I remember the quote and my answer, I suspect you tried it once before.
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Prayer
Jul 3, 2013 20:39:33 GMT 9.5
Post by Ah, George on Jul 3, 2013 20:39:33 GMT 9.5
Ah, George, A curmudgeon in death as well as life, I see. His life may have made him an expert on the subject, but he doesn't know his drunks very well. Almost invariably they drink to cover hurt and they are not a very happy lot by and large. Since I remember the quote and my answer, I suspect you tried it once before. The point is that whether or not a lie makes you feel good, it is still not the truth. Another analogy I repeatedly drew was that, while I would not deny a dying man opium to ease his pain, I would not recommend it to someone in the prime of life.
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Prayer
Jul 4, 2013 18:19:30 GMT 9.5
Post by Emo Phillips on Jul 4, 2013 18:19:30 GMT 9.5
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emp Phillips.
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Prayer
Jul 4, 2013 18:30:48 GMT 9.5
Post by LorrB on Jul 4, 2013 18:30:48 GMT 9.5
... and you would take foxfires money with no qualms ... starting to get a clear picture of how you think.
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Prayer
Jul 4, 2013 18:55:35 GMT 9.5
Post by chip in on Jul 4, 2013 18:55:35 GMT 9.5
Do you want to chip in? No strings attached.
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