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Post by Henka on Oct 1, 2010 14:49:12 GMT 9.5
Sometimes you get my head in a tizz (no comments) Paul. We could talk about particulars, but your experience goes beyond mine, so I am left floundering. With Gio's paper it was the concept which attracted me. What works on one level probably works on another. Atoms-solar systems-galaxies etc. With the male/female thing, wouldn't it be a case for things in general to reach an 'androgynous' state. You're just thinking too much. What we must achieve is balance. No more, no less. All the esoteric trappings are so much window dressing.
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Post by coach on Oct 1, 2010 21:29:38 GMT 9.5
For every female who makes herself male will enter the domain of Heaven So what would we see as a female makes herself male? A human being who has transformed his/her consciousness toward those things which are spiritually based. (And "yes," certain "men" are females in the context of how this ancient metaphor was intended.) ...Given that males and females are co-equal within Creation (at least to my vision), there must be another meaning. YES! Your "must" thought is showing that you are getting warmer. ...And presumably males need to become females to enter the Kingdom of Heaven Survey says: You might do well to move from speculation toward research. In this instance, the use of the word "men" meant "humankind" in its "female" state and not "male" state, for "males" CAN see it. BTW - " Father" does not mean a male sire in the context of how this metaphor is meant. ..."Little children" is probably code for the uninitiated - not yet adult in things of the spirit. Or it just might be the state that a mind must induce to see the truth being presented before it, unhindered by preconceived notions that adulthood prevents a mind from seeing. ...If that were the case why would females need to become male? I get the distinct impression that you are taking this literally and not figuratively, as I believe it was indeed meant. ...The key is perhaps in the multiple intelligences within a human - how each of the chakra entities needs to be able to take on whatever polarity is relevant to the physical or metaphysical context. Thus being stuck in one polarity indicates further development is required OR perhaps a speculative rabbit chase has been offered and rather than engage in such pursuit one can merely go back to the time when the metaphor was written and simply understand that male=spiritual and female=physical to understand what was truly being communicated.
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Post by coach on Oct 1, 2010 21:32:27 GMT 9.5
LorrB, did you change the first post of this thread and add my offered Gospel According to Thomas quote or did I simply miss seeing it my first time through?
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Post by paul on Oct 2, 2010 11:31:34 GMT 9.5
one can merely go back to the time when the metaphor was written and simply understand that male=spiritual and female=physical to understand what was truly being communicated. I wonder if that itself is a male view of the inner realities. For example my ex-wife maintained that women had never left the Grail Castle. You might also consider the "The Marriages Between Zones Three, Four and Five" in which Lessing maintains that women have another and superior religion to that of men. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marriages_Between_Zones_Three,_Four_and_Five Certainly my observation of spiritual and religious groups demonstrates greater attention by women to the inner worlds. Even in Masonry, the mixed lodges I have seen have been more intensely connected to the Blazing Star than any male craft lodge that I have inspected.
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Post by paul on Oct 2, 2010 11:38:58 GMT 9.5
Survey says: You might do well to move from speculation toward research. Who is Survey? Personally I prefer to move from speculation to hypothesis to experiment.
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Post by coach on Oct 2, 2010 12:17:03 GMT 9.5
one can merely go back to the time when the metaphor was written and simply understand that male=spiritual and female=physical to understand what was truly being communicated. I wonder if that itself is a male view of the inner realities. Maybe it's neither a male nor a female view and perhaps it's a balanced view from both with something special added. For example my ex-wife maintained that women had never left the Grail Castle. Yeah, I know what ya mean. Some of the gals I dated never left the forest! I am grateful for such blessings. Castle folk are impressive too; I know that there is a place for everyone. Thanks! You still might want to meditate upon the possibilities I offered. I've always thought that anytime ya get someone maintaining superior this or that, it should raise a blue or pink warning flag. It's not gender that makes someone superior, it's what they do with what they got. Certainly my observation of spiritual and religious groups demonstrates greater attention by women to the inner worlds. Interesting... I wonder how serious such a conclusion should be taken, based upon the gender of the observer... Could there be an unavoidable biasing? Even in Masonry, the mixed lodges I have seen have been more intensely connected to the Blazing Star than any male craft lodge that I have inspected. We all have our focus. Pillars seem to get their fair attention too. As do the VoSL and a host of other items left lying around Lodges. Survey says: You might do well to move from speculation toward research. Who is Survey? Personally I prefer to move from speculation to hypothesis to experiment. I take it you never watched "Family Feud?" I like experimentation too, when the basis of what I am researching has proofed itself out and no further headway can occur without actually engaging in a quest for further proof that is not available through any other means. However, what I put forth requires no experimentation. It is based on historical fact regarding the culture that produced such documents.
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Post by paul on Oct 2, 2010 12:27:32 GMT 9.5
what I put forth requires no experimentation. It is based on historical fact regarding the culture that produced such documents. You have more faith in history than I.
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Post by paul on Oct 2, 2010 14:58:04 GMT 9.5
We all have our focus. Pillars seem to get their fair attention too. The first time I saw the connection from the BS into a temple it appeared to me as a line of pale blue energy. It was rather uncertain and not uniform but it was sufficient for me to apply for initiation.
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Post by coach on Oct 2, 2010 21:26:28 GMT 9.5
what I put forth requires no experimentation. It is based on historical fact regarding the culture that produced such documents. You have more faith in history than I. Isn't "faith" choosing to believe something regardless of evidence for or against? It's not my faith in history. It might be faith in my fellow humans though. I understand that my belief is not faith if it is based upon artifacts - which would be classified as evidence. What was shared from the past, however fabricated, has continuity with what is known about the culture then. If choosing to believe with or without evidence is an act of faith, then my "faith" is such an act that is based upon my faith in my reasoning upon the evidence put forth -- which would once again knock it out of the faith ballpark since I am basing that choice upon evidence put forth by past reasoning. That evidence makes sense to me based upon what I understand to be 'truth.' If what I share herein is not evidence enough for you, have faith that what I share will eventually make sense if you perpend it long enough and with a suitable proficiency in reasoning. We all have our focus. Pillars seem to get their fair attention too. The first time I saw the connection from the BS into a temple it appeared to me as a line of pale blue energy. It was rather uncertain and not uniform but it was sufficient for me to apply for initiation. What you share would be considered a hallucination by many, no matter how spiritually inspired, but still a most unusual experience of non-ordinary reality. I have similar hallucinations when I read information that lacks continuity with reality. My mind actually registers a break in the words and scrambles like a mob of crazy ants looking for possible continuity. I don't truly 'see' them but I sense that they are there, doing their best to make sense of something senseless. It's quite fun to sit back and "watch" my mind do its work to explore such breaks when faced with such circumstance. I've had a lot of fun here. I hope you have too. Thanks!
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Post by paul on Oct 3, 2010 5:47:40 GMT 9.5
What you share would be considered a hallucination by many, I was once in a workshop where on the morning after the first meeting, everyone of the 24 had dreamed of or been dreamed by someone else in the group. There was 100% coverage with no previous instruction to notice dreams. I find that suitable group protocols provide shared detailed experiences in advance of prompts.
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Post by coach on Oct 3, 2010 22:10:39 GMT 9.5
What you share would be considered a hallucination by many, I was once in a workshop where on the morning after the first meeting, everyone of the 24 had dreamed of or been dreamed by someone else in the group. There was 100% coverage with no previous instruction to notice dreams. I find that suitable group protocols provide shared detailed experiences in advance of prompts. I recall many classes that I took in college, books-articles-research that I have read and many related stories of "group" hallucinations and how such occurrences manifest. They are truly amazing and wonders to behold, To have such an experience would be quite remarkable indeed for anyone not having one before. As for myself, I have had extra-ordinary experiences -- all "a natural" -- that would boggle the mind of the sane-est of the sane. I cherish them but I do not offer such experiences as proof of anything; I merely share them as extra-ordinary non-ordinary personal experiences that I appreciate for personal reasons of which I shall not expand upon here. The relating of such events in this thread though doesn't lend support to the topic at hand, but I thank you for sharing something that must have been life-changing for yourself and those who shared it. To master the ability to bring forth such altered states and to do so on a regular basis is not something that many can induce.
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Post by LorrB on Oct 6, 2010 11:38:25 GMT 9.5
LorrB, did you change the first post of this thread and add my offered Gospel According to Thomas quote or did I simply miss seeing it my first time through? I usually only change my spelling mistakes in my posts and never change anyone else's posts.
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Post by coach on Oct 6, 2010 11:42:14 GMT 9.5
LorrB, did you change the first post of this thread and add my offered Gospel According to Thomas quote or did I simply miss seeing it my first time through? I usually only change my spelling mistakes in my posts and never change anyone else's posts. I didn't remember seeing the GAtT quote in the first post when I posted it. That's why I asked if you had added it. It's one of my favorite which is why I was suprised to see it at second glance. It's a keeper!
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Post by LorrB on Oct 10, 2010 15:36:46 GMT 9.5
I just read that Albert Pike (a scholar) stated that Masons adopted John the Baptist as a cover for their secret veneration of John the Evangelist. Which begs the question, why? Both being saints.
If John the Evangelist was a woman I guess they might be a bit sensitive about things.
But elsewhere I read that AE Waite thinks Johannite Christians (Christ meaning Anointed) regarded the Baptist as the only true prophet, ie superior to Jesus, who was also Anointed or Christed)
One can see why one must just follow that still small voice withing when one is seeking after Truth.
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Post by Henka on Oct 11, 2010 4:42:32 GMT 9.5
I just read that Albert Pike (a scholar) stated that Masons adopted John the Baptist as a cover for their secret veneration of John the Evangelist. Which begs the question, why? Both being saints. If John the Evangist was a woman I guess they might be a bit sensitive about things. But elsewhere I read that AE Waite thinks Johannite Christians (Christ meaning Anointed) regarded the Baptist as the only true prophet, ie superior to Jesus, who was also Anointed or Christed) One can see why one must just follow that still small voice withing when one is seeking after Truth. Pike is totally off track. Freemasonry encodes ancient knowledge which the two solsitices play a pivotal role in. The "saints" are just a Christian layer that has been painted over the original. Seek further, you are mistaking the external symbolism for the truth.
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Post by paul on Oct 11, 2010 5:37:08 GMT 9.5
The "saints" are just a Christian layer that has been painted over the original. Unless those saints were followers of a spiritual tradition suppressed by the Roman church. For example: John used baptism to initiate followers into his congregation including Jesus, while Jesus baptised no one. Perhaps Leonardo with his love of the "John sign" also followed a hidden spiritual tradition.
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Post by Henka on Oct 11, 2010 7:40:32 GMT 9.5
Perhaps, and perhaps there is something more here.
Hint: The Book of Enoch.
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Post by LorrB on Oct 11, 2010 9:01:59 GMT 9.5
Please share...
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