I do not have beliefs

[paul]

This is a great topic with multiple aspects and I hardly know which is the best starting point.

So is the statement "I do not have beliefs" a mental statement?

If it is a mental statement, then we are asking the mind to assess itself. And if the mind is not entirely pure, how can we have faith in the answer that it gives. The way out of that problem is to function at a higher level than the mental plane.

I recall in my teens that I would often state to people: I have a cast iron stomach - I can eat anything.

A decade later I discovered that this was not true even when I said it. I had chronic indigestion and was suppressing the pain. It took another decade of careful management before my digestion was reasonably robust.

So the statement and the thought that gave rise to it was plainly wrong.

Having discovered that, I started to observe my thoughts and noticed that quite often the thought as it rose up into my consciousness was being inverted so that the conscious thought was quite opposite to the situation that gave rise to the impulse.

After that, I examined strong thought statements quite carefully and did not take them at face value.



So the tendency to inversion of thoughts is one problem. Another problem is whether the thought is homegrown or an import.

The most obvious import of thought patterns is when the human has been conditioned by politics, education or religion. It has long been known that humans that are taught doctrines and beliefs from an early age have great trouble in discarding those as adults. Thus the mental intelligence is trained to think in particular patterns.

There is also real time reception of thoughts. There are very few humans who claim to be able to control their thoughts. Thus there are very few humans that can claim to be sure that their thoughts are genuinely theirs - as compared with implanted or transmitted thoughts from various sources. The acceptability of the foreign thoughts is almost guaranteed if the human has been preconditioned by being taught particular ways of thinking. a406.proboards.com/thread/561/

There is a more fundamental problem. Thoughts do not exist in isolation, they are manifested in mental substances (the noosphere) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere

Thus human thoughts reuse mental substance that has been previously conditioned by human and other use. The mental substance in turn is part of a bigger system with karmic issues so that some thoughts are quite difficult to form within Earth mental substance. I had a related experience at Clava Cairns where the mental substance was resistant to the thoughts I was working hard to form.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clava_cairn



Anyway, to cut to the chase, is it possible to demonstrate that a person does not have beliefs?

Does a person without beliefs have any conceptual structures? Those with severe dementia only have access to very limited conceptual structures and the symptom of that is having lost the ability to make sense of what is seen.



I suggest that the existence of beliefs is not resolvable at the mental level because ultimately we are asking the mind to tell us about itself, and the mind, if not interfered with, typically has its own agenda (self preservation) and therefore may not be truthful in its answers.



So the next question is why such a thought would arise so strongly. What would induce the mind to repeat that thought so often? What entity could gain from the thought?

[paul]

I recall that about the age of 20 I switched from Maths and Chemistry to Economics, and as I moved into a different system of thought, I went into a state that felt like psychological freefall.

The typical process would be that I was in a conversation or interaction with some people and I would see that what I was about to say was based on really silly beliefs that I had inherited and developed in my youth.

This process went on daily for 9 months, and after 9 months I had worked through the most obviously silly beliefs. About 3 years later I went through another process of discarding narrow beliefs.

In retrospect, my life perspective has changed radically at least twice, and each time there was a set of limiting or embarrassing beliefs to discard.

I look forward to the next corner to be turned.

[paul]

>someone survived a few NDE's real young

This is an interesting situation. Most children do not have a particularly sophisticated set of concepts, so an NDE might be experienced or remembered in ways that an adult would not. For example a NDE might be remembered as a dream.

On the other hand, some OBEs that are triggered by other entities and some alien encounters have resulted in a complete download of new understandings, without the relevant experiences. This is a direct modification of the human's intellectual structure.

I have seen minor versions of that where an energy structure looking like a cube, is brought close to and absorbed by the human's aura. Such skill cubes can be constructed deliberately. I once constructed one for observing past bloodlines and all the four targeted people immediately could observe what seemed to them to be family trees going back from themselves.


I suspect that it is not possible to think (on the lower mental subplanes) about any aspect or event without using a code library of concepts. Is such a library of concepts the same as a set of belief?


On the higher mental subplanes, concepts are not so relevant as the nature of relationship is more evident.

[pointwithinacircle]

Jul 22, 2014 7:59:00 GMT 9.5 paul said:

So is the statement "I do not have beliefs" a mental statement?

If it is a mental statement, then we are asking the mind to assess itself. And if the mind is not entirely pure, how can we have faith in the answer that it gives. The way out of that problem is to function at a higher level than the mental plane.
....................................................................................................................

Anyway, to cut to the chase, is it possible to demonstrate that a person does not have beliefs?

Does a person without beliefs have any conceptual structures? Those with severe dementia only have access to very limited conceptual structures and the symptom of that is having lost the ability to make sense of what is seen.



I suggest that the existence of beliefs is not resolvable at the mental level because ultimately we are asking the mind to tell us about itself, and the mind, if not interfered with, typically has its own agenda (self preservation) and therefore may not be truthful in its answers.



So the next question is why such a thought would arise so strongly. What would induce the mind to repeat that thought so often? What entity could gain from the thought?

I think that there is a correlation between what you are calling Beliefs and what Mortimer Adler calls Ideas. This first came to me attention when I was reading his book "Six Great Ideas" and came across the statement "an Idea cannot be at the same time what we think with and what we think about". Here Adler is differentiating between what we think about, which he calls our 'objects of thought' and what we think with, or the tools we use to understand our objects of thought. What brought this to mind was your statement about the mind assessing itself.

Even if we make the mind our "object of thought" there is still something that is examining it as an object.  I think that the something that is examining, this self/mind/consciousness, contains beliefs/ideas/concepts that it is using to examine the object of thought.  Hopefully this examination process causes the object of thought to become better defined and refined so that it becomes a better tool for use in examining the next object of thought. 

P.S. I have heard tell of a level of being where this process is unnecessary because you see everything as it actually is without having to pass judgement on it, but I am not there yet.

[paul]

>see everything as it actually is without having to pass judgement on it

There are two relevant stages there:

- observing events or situations without filtering through concepts and beliefs - as occurs in heart knowledge (intuition)
- recognizing an event or situation without imposing one's own value system - as occurs in the pure mind.

[paul]

I just received an email that asked: who would I be if I had no belief system of any kind?

Thus I have would no belief about:

- what sort of being or non-being that I am
- whether what I experience is real
- whether other intelligences exist
- whether I have a past or a future
- whether I have a purpose
- whether existence has a purpose

Have a go at that. What happens?

[paul]

>firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel

Early in OT times their god claimed as sacrifice all the first born. The sacrifice involved cooking as Abraham well knew.

>if u were god, lost all u kids on a planet & wanted em back but things they did & thought were self manifesting How would u fix that how would u safely bring em up to speed

Personally I do not hold the gods in particularly high regard. Many of them were carpetbaggers.

But the question out of that context is interesting as various alien sources have said that humans can produce what they want without needing technology.

Thus if you could program the human race to believe things contrary to their freedom then they would tend to manifest that pretty well. The global politics might be relevant.

So the way out of the problem might be to teach humans what they really are. Organized religion, being administered by humans, is not particularly useful in this respect.

[paul]

Is the process of human escape from control the same for groups as for individuals?

[paul]

This thread started from another post where the poster claimed: I do not have beliefs.

This struck me as quite unlikely so I posted:

Aug 10, 2018 6:49:26 GMT 9.5 paul said:

...who would I be if I had no belief system of any kind?

Thus I have would no belief about:

- what sort of being or non-being that I am
- whether what I experience is real
- whether other intelligences exist
- whether I have a past or a future
- whether I have a purpose
- whether existence has a purpose

Have a go at that. What happens?

Oddly enough no one seemed to have a go at that experiment.

Still it seems to me that experiments, while not able to free us entirely from beliefs, at least thin out the raft of beliefs on which humans float.

The reason experiment alone is not sufficient is that every scientific process has assumptions.

For example, every geometry I have encountered assumes that points and lines exist.



Still, there is direct knowing possible when operating on the buddhic plane. This is referenced in Transcendental Meditation where in one of the old lectures the question is asked:

- What does the person that has experienced pure consciousness say?






























The answer is: I am!


No doubt some will be pleased to know that the Flame exercise progressively increases experience and skill on the buddhic plane and therefore the experience of existence before beliefs were developed

[sammy]

Jun 16, 2021 11:54:47 GMT 9.5 paul said:

This thread started from another post where the poster claimed: I do not have beliefs.

This struck me as quite unlikely so I posted:

Aug 10, 2018 6:49:26 GMT 9.5 paul said:

...who would I be if I had no belief system of any kind?

Thus I have would no belief about:

- what sort of being or non-being that I am
- whether what I experience is real
- whether other intelligences exist
- whether I have a past or a future
- whether I have a purpose
- whether existence has a purpose

Have a go at that. What happens?

Oddly enough no one seemed to have a go at that experiment.

Still it seems to me that experiments, while not able to free us entirely from beliefs, at least thin out the raft of beliefs on which humans float.

The reason experiment alone is not sufficient is that every scientific process has assumptions.

For example, every geometry I have encountered assumes that points and lines exist.



Still, there is direct knowing possible when operating on the buddhic plane. This is referenced in Transcendental Meditation where in one of the old lectures the question is asked:

- What does the person that has experienced pure consciousness say?






























The answer is: I am!


No doubt some will be pleased to know that the Flame exercise progressively increases experience and skill on the buddhic plane and therefore the experience of existence before beliefs were developed

I somehow missed this exercise, so sorry!

With this system of understanding reality of no beliefs. Life would still have death. 

Would this not also be "I am" or " I am not"? Awareness (not source) of spirit or otherwise is stemmed through our current physical body.

[paul]

>Would this not also be "I am" or " I am not"

The human experiencing pure consciousness has experienced their own existence independently of thought or emotions or physical reality.

Hence the unqualified: I am!


In any transcending meditation there is typically a loss of sense of time - a "where was I?" experience. This transcending of mind and emotions eventually develops a knowing of existence beyond time and space

[sammy]

Jun 17, 2021 6:41:35 GMT 9.5 paul said:

>Would this not also be "I am" or " I am not"

The human experiencing pure consciousness has experienced their own existence independently of thought or emotions or physical reality.

Hence the unqualified: I am!


In any transcending meditation there is typically a loss of sense of time - a "where was I?" experience. This transcending of mind and emotions eventually develops a knowing of existence beyond time and space

I gotcha now. The steps.

[elijah]

...who would I be if I had no belief system of any kind?

Thus I have would no belief about:

- what sort of being or non-being that I am
- whether what I experience is real
- whether other intelligences exist
- whether I have a past or a future
- whether I have a purpose
- whether existence has a purpose

Have a go at that. What happens?

''BELIELIVING'' seem to tonally set rhythm of intelligence linked to G who would i be is knowning with out the thinking thought wake up super mario
went to plenty worlds and encountered all sorts of entitys to  be a plumber fixing plugged toilets now him and his brother are saving soul pieces from reptile gods the belife of the princess is driven by forces higher then hey lets bang on the honey MOON

i ask is the entity living in the word ''belive'' exist for purpose to the influence that which it effects certain aspects of the human anchoring into the heart flame like gods little trick to see ;;Whos thought is that;;is knowing belief? just use an energy of the words to create no matter if others lose there creative alot of mimics and cynics its like hands on truth now belive but do you know/?is now your belife cause you don't know ?and who dont want to know? i belead you asked for it that's a few karma points lossed eventually love<right relationship with thought, feeling ,,heart knowning> kills the belife of self righteous delusions the entity which is belife serves self as foundation..belief and feeling have a interesting relationship IF i have no beliefs i would be free from forgetting disconnected with feeling , and if seen on the mental sight Woke with no need for relationships how when the void is dark expanding into knowing so in the case i ask am hey beanleaf im a Vessel chalice for belife that its my thoughts and heart which breath life into beliving some things on earth breathing is believing can be traps in other places rambling done on the purpose of searching

[paul]

Jun 19, 2021 20:46:07 GMT 9.5 elijah said:

''BELIELIVING'' seem to tonally set rhythm of intelligence linked to G who would i be is knowning with out the thinking thought wake up super mario
went to plenty worlds and encountered all sorts of entitys to  be a plumber fixing plugged toilets now him and his brother are saving soul pieces from reptile gods the belife of the princess is driven by forces higher then hey lets bang on the honey MOON

i ask is the entity living in the word ''belive'' exist for purpose to the influence that which it effects certain aspects of the human anchoring into the heart flame like gods little trick to see ;;Whos thought is that;;is knowing belief? just use an energy of the words to create no matter if others lose there creative alot of mimics and cynics its like hands on truth now belive but do you know/?is now your belife cause you don't know ?and who dont want to know? i belead you asked for it that's a few karma points lossed eventually love<right relationship with thought, feeling ,,heart knowning> kills the belife of self righteous delusions the entity which is belife serves self as foundation..belief and feeling have a interesting relationship IF i have no beliefs i would be free from forgetting disconnected with feeling , and if seen on the mental sight Woke with no need for relationships how when the void is dark expanding into knowing so in the case i ask am hey beanleaf im a Vessel chalice for belife that its my thoughts and heart which breath life into beliving some things on earth breathing is believing can be traps in other places rambling done on the purpose of searching

I find it difficult to separate the thoughts here but:

- "BELIELIVING'' seem to tonally set rhythm of intelligence" is interesting as an image of the beliefs programming patterns in intelligence

- "anchoring into the heart flame like gods little trick to see " The experiential process of The Source of All is a much more extensive than the flame and at higher levels. Consider the function of the 5 Electricities. So from where did that thought come? It is original in this forum's posts.

- "is now your belife cause you don't know ?" It is certainly true that beliefs are used to disguise ignorance - and as we know from George Orwell "Ignorance is Strength".

- "breathing is believing" It is not clear to what that statement is connected, but it seems to suggest that beliefs are present from the first breath of a newborn. If so, beliefs come from before birth. This may be true.

- "rambling done on the purpose of searching"

[sammy]

Jun 19, 2021 20:46:07 GMT 9.5 elijah said:

...who would I be if I had no belief system of any kind?

Thus I have would no belief about:

- what sort of being or non-being that I am
- whether what I experience is real
- whether other intelligences exist
- whether I have a past or a future
- whether I have a purpose
- whether existence has a purpose

Have a go at that. What happens?

''BELIELIVING'' seem to tonally set rhythm of intelligence linked to G who would i be is knowning with out the thinking thought wake up super mario
went to plenty worlds and encountered all sorts of entitys to  be a plumber fixing plugged toilets now him and his brother are saving soul pieces from reptile gods the belife of the princess is driven by forces higher then hey lets bang on the honey MOON

i ask is the entity living in the word ''belive'' exist for purpose to the influence that which it effects certain aspects of the human anchoring into the heart flame like gods little trick to see ;;Whos thought is that;;is knowing belief? just use an energy of the words to create no matter if others lose there creative alot of mimics and cynics its like hands on truth now belive but do you know/?is now your belife cause you don't know ?and who dont want to know? i belead you asked for it that's a few karma points lossed eventually love<right relationship with thought, feeling ,,heart knowning> kills the belife of self righteous delusions the entity which is belife serves self as foundation..belief and feeling have a interesting relationship IF i have no beliefs i would be free from forgetting disconnected with feeling , and if seen on the mental sight Woke with no need for relationships how when the void is dark expanding into knowing so in the case i ask am hey beanleaf im a Vessel chalice for belife that its my thoughts and heart which breath life into beliving some things on earth breathing is believing can be traps in other places rambling done on the purpose of searching

Belief and feeling..

Indeed. Interesting.

A link I think mostly overlooked and an important one at that.

Even those with the same beliefs will have different feelings as it grows. The two are linked but from individual perspectives.