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Post by stepnwolf on May 27, 2013 4:01:30 GMT 9.5
In reading some of the posts on another forum, I discovered that one of our administrators has been accused of being anti-semitic and proposing that all Jewish elements be removed from the Craft. This surprises me greatly and I really can't give credence to any of it, but it does beg the question: what would the Craft be without those Jewish elements?
The writer there alluded to our use of Sanskrit in our posts and I wonder if a Masonry could be developed using Hindu myths and more Sanskrit terms. I daresay it could be, but how would Brn respond to such a system?
Another Bro. here in another thread proposes another kind of Masonry, which would take into account the other side of reality that is absent from the current setup. There really hasn't been an answer to the question is it still Masonry. The Adyar working and the Lauderdale to some extent have introduced elements that seem foreign to the original European design. It comes closer to church ritual and appears to be, pardon me Lorr, more feminine. I guess that isn't so bad but I would miss the more masculine approach.
In my universe Masonry without the Jewish elements in both ritual and myth would be inconceivable. I doubt than any other system would appeal to me as much. In the final analysis, the decision on Masonry's format will probably be personal. Some old-line Masons would prefer not having women in the L., but that really is a personal choice. And there seems to be no objective way judging what is true Freemasonry.
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Post by stewartedwards on May 27, 2013 4:29:33 GMT 9.5
there seems to be no objective way judging what is true Freemasonry. Well it is only one GLs definition but the primary tenet says "Every True Freemason will show tolerance ....etc" so in UGLEland it is fairly clear cut. You might be an initiated mason but if you dont follow the primary tenet you are not a true one. Though a fair number of ugle masons I have interacted with have argued differently [it you are initiated you are true full stop]. Hey ho, I just take the words at face value.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2013 5:43:36 GMT 9.5
Traditionally Masonry existed before KST, when Moses was an Egyptian prince and therefore could hardly have had the usual Jewish symbolism.
What symbolism would Masonry have had in Egyptian times? A widow, her son, Hor, raising the dead father Asar?
Hor had a mysterious ladder too.
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Post by LorrB on May 27, 2013 9:36:35 GMT 9.5
In reading some of the posts on another forum, I discovered that one of our administrators has been accused of being anti-semitic and proposing that all Jewish elements be removed from the Craft. This surprises me greatly and I really can't give credence to any of it, but it does beg the question: what would the Craft be without those Jewish elements? Muslim Mithraic Scientific etc etc Re the Moors (Muslims) Sun & Moon = Negative magnetic force, and the positive electric force. Crescent and Star = The Great Universal Woman (Mother of Nature) which produces all forms. Forms - the Son principle. (As all males are sons therefore there is no husband and therefore all are sons of the Widow) Sun in Latin = Sol or Solus Sun in Sanskrit = Aum or OmSun in Ethiopic = OnSOL-OM-ON The 'Self' in Islam is depicted as an eye within a triangle atop a pyramid. The 'Law' is depicted by the square and compasses.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2013 9:49:06 GMT 9.5
>Mithraic
There is a lot of Mithraism in Masonry and indeed that seems to be the source of the orthodox Christian "washed in the blood". The orthodox Jews were/are very fussy about avoiding blood.
By examining rituals it is possible to find substantial Egyptian, Sumerian, Mithraic, Hindu and Jewish contributions to Masonry.
For example Mithrais had 2 offsiders (wardens?). One held his torch up and the other down. They were called Cautes and Cautopates. Did they teach us to be cautious?
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Post by LorrB on May 27, 2013 10:00:28 GMT 9.5
The 5 Principles of IslamMay I suggest that readers access this link re the Moors ... fascinating reading. I am equally convinced that you will find the same symbolism in all religions if you explore them with eyes wide open - because they are explaining how THE Force becomes forces which create/maintain/destroy what we recognise (and not) in the Universe. The Risen Son story might suggest that recycling is a given and that we take up where we left off last time round, be we celestial orb or an acacia tree. Clearly many masons are not ready to look at, or understand, the big picture, but that does not mean that we don't have our own little role to play, our next lesson to learn, as we slowly quicken out little share of the forces (climb the ladder). Maybe the only difference between the Scientists Force/forces and religion's God is that the Force is Consciousness.
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Post by Jochebed on May 27, 2013 18:21:13 GMT 9.5
Traditionally Masonry existed before KST, when Moses was an Egyptian prince and therefore could hardly have had the usual Jewish symbolism. If you are really relying on tradition for a modern construction then remember that the same tradition has his mother appointed as his nurse maid and raising him in the full knowledge of his Jewish heritage (Exodus 2:1–10).
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Post by paul on May 27, 2013 18:31:37 GMT 9.5
>raising him in the full knowledge of his Jewish heritage
Leaving aside whether the editors of Exodus had any political agendas, what sort of Mysteries would Moses have taught in the lodge in the wilderness years?
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Post by Jochebed on May 27, 2013 18:47:17 GMT 9.5
Leaving aside whether the editors of Exodus had any political agendas... You are picking and choosing which bits of the same tradition arising from the same agenda suit your purposes with regard to a modern construct.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2013 18:56:23 GMT 9.5
So what sort of Mysteries would Moses have taught in the lodge in the wilderness years?
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Post by Israel Finkelstein on May 27, 2013 19:13:52 GMT 9.5
So what sort of Mysteries would Moses have taught in the lodge in the wilderness years? Archaeology shows there was not one big exodus but waves of fugitives and exiles. No Exodus suggests no Moses. We are just left with an agenda driven Jewish tradition.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2013 19:18:08 GMT 9.5
>We are just left with an agenda driven Jewish tradition.
So is Masonry just a fraternal society based on Jewish traditions? Is there no charter from on high?
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Post by THOATF not on May 27, 2013 19:25:39 GMT 9.5
Is there no charter from on high? That sums up the V.S.L. It is a human construct.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2013 19:29:22 GMT 9.5
>It is a human construct.
So do you consider that Masonry is purely a human construct?
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Post by it follows on May 27, 2013 19:52:43 GMT 9.5
So do you consider that Masonry is purely a human construct? YES.
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Post by paul on May 27, 2013 20:06:29 GMT 9.5
So why would you pursue such an arbitrary organisation? There must be better things to do.
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Post by human genius on May 27, 2013 20:35:48 GMT 9.5
So why would you pursue such an arbitrary organisation? There must be better things to do. Who said it was arbitrary? It is magnificent! You again underestimate human greatness, seeking to give credit for anything of note to non-existent otherworldly entities.
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Post by LorrB on May 28, 2013 7:57:36 GMT 9.5
The GAoTU is a human construct? This is really just a scrambled egg universe? (Thats a yolk ) I agree with you human genius, that Freemasonry is magnificent. What makes it magnificent in your eyes?
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Post by Brotherhood on May 28, 2013 20:00:54 GMT 9.5
What makes it magnificent in your eyes? Its perceptive representation of and moral lessons about the human condition, involving knowledge, activity, emotions and good will, using the allegory of building and the symbols of architecture to demonstrate self-control, self-sacrifice and unity and the importance of Brotherly love, Relief and Truth. In a word - Brotherhood.
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Post by stepnwolf on May 28, 2013 21:30:50 GMT 9.5
So what sort of Mysteries would Moses have taught in the lodge in the wilderness years? Archaeology shows there was not one big exodus but waves of fugitives and exiles. No Exodus suggests no Moses. We are just left with an agenda driven Jewish tradition. There may not have been the Exodus; Moses may never have existed. But somehow there is the archetype of Moses leading the children of Israel out of the land of bondage. It is a figure that has been applied to the human condition and has helped to clarify personal trauma as well as world events, to give meaning to the meaningless. The rational mind searches for cause/effect, for reason, even for Truth and yet it is like trying to holding quicksilver in your hand. The moment you think you've captured it, it slithers away. Archetypes like Moses and the Exodus have universal application, if we look at them closely. I am beginning to think that all of this is built into to cosmos in the beginning for only one purpose, to bring us back to the One. Borrowing some ideas from Catholic thinkers, we may say that the Deity, God, whatever, expanded into His creation to experience His/Its full potential. We conscious beings are metaphorically His sense organs that eventually must return to the One. The archetypes help in our journey back to the One. Even the idea of returning to the One may be an allegory to help us understand a more profound condition beyond our human understanding. For myself, it is enough merely to take the one step immediately in front of me. Not in faith, but in knowing the ultimate destination of the path before me.
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